With an increase in tourists heading to these parts, some may be wondering if Japan is a safe destination for those with disabilities. If you’re concerned, Josh Grisdale from the website Accessible Japan is here to help. Check out this past interview with him on everything from accessibility in Tokyo to dealing with trains and the country’s shifting attitudes.

Hosted by Shaun McKenna and produced by Dave Cortez.

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Transcript note: Deep Dive is made to be listened to, and we recommend this transcript be used as an accompaniment to the episode. This transcript has been generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription, and may contain errors. Please check its accuracy against the episode.

Shaun McKenna 00:08

Welcome to Deep Dive from The Japan Times, I'm Shaun McKenna. While we're still on our spring break of sorts, we wanted to bring you another interesting discussion from our back catalog. If you've ever been to Tokyo, or any of Japan's other vast areas of urban sprawl, you may have walked through districts where the density of people and infrastructure feels a little overwhelming. Tokyo doesn't really hold a candle to cities like Manila in the Philippines, which has a population density of over 46,000 people per square kilometer — that's compared to Tokyo’s 6,400 people in statistics from 2020. Nevertheless, the city has engineered ways of moving its roughly 40 million inhabitants through the greater metropolitan area, and it's impressive. In fact, Josh Grisdale, a Japanese citizen with cerebral palsy, who uses an electric wheelchair to get around, told former Deep Dive host Oscar Boyd in an episode from 2021 that Japan is definitely a world leader in terms of infrastructure for mobility. Josh has lived in Japan since 2007, and has become an expert on accessibility issues in the country, setting up and running the website Accessible Japan as a key resource for those with disabilities to find information about accessibility when traveling here. In this rebroadcast of Oscar’s interview with Josh, they discuss his experience getting around as a person with a disability in Japan, what the country gets right in terms of accessibility, and where he feels it still has some room for improvement.

Oscar Boyd 01:48

Josh, thank you so much for joining me today.

Josh Grisdale 01:50

It's my pleasure.

Oscar Boyd 01:51

And thank you for having us up in Edogawa Ward. It's nice for me to travel and get out of the Japan Times offices.

Josh Grisdale 01:56

Glad to have you here.

Oscar Boyd 01:57

So I mentioned in the introduction that you became a Japanese citizen back in 2016 and that's where I want to kick off this conversation. And just to get a bit of the history of your relationship with Japan and how it was for you moving here with a disability.

Josh Grisdale 02:11

Yeah, so actually around this time in the summer is my Japanese birthday, as I call it. So I'll be turning 5 this year, so I'm gonna have to go to school soon. But yeah, I grew up in Canada, I'm from a small town outside of Toronto. We lived on a farm actually, so we had a lot of sheep, and not many people around. So I have cerebral palsy, so because of that, I use a wheelchair. But thankfully, in Canada, the laws have become just a little bit before I've been born, allowed me to go to school with everybody else, my age group, go to the same school the whole time. So that was really great. And in my high school, we actually had a Japanese class, kind of strange in the middle of nowhere to have a Japanese class in Canada. And so that really sparked an interest in Japan and me.

Oscar Boyd 02:58

And when did that interest evolve into you first coming to Japan?

Josh Grisdale 03:02

Yeah, I finished high school and I wanted to come visit Japan before starting university. At that time, there really wasn't much information about accessibility in Japan at all, of course, and I wasn't sure if it was gonna be a possibility. But my parents have always encouraged me to, you know, to take risks and challenges and, you know, even if it doesn't work out, then at least you tried. At the time, my parents, you know, my Dad decided to come with me. So that really helped serve alleviate a lot of fears, etc. And I also need somebody helped me anyways. So we came over here in 2000, for the first time, and I got hooked.

Oscar Boyd 03:34

And paint a picture for me, how was Japan for accessibility when you first visited in 2000?

Josh Grisdale 03:40

Well, it was a lot easier than I had expected, I guess is the best way to say it. I've only seen things in media. So I wasn't really quite sure what the reality was for people with disabilities. Because, you know, that's not often shown in media, I was impressed that you could actually get on the train, there was a spot on the train. At that time, I would say that maybe even less than 30% of the train stations in Tokyo were accessible. I had some really interesting adventures. For example, when I went to Akihabara, the only elevator that was available was the maintenance elevator for throwing the garbage out. And so I had to go through the, you know, the staff room and go through these tiny areas where they're moving boxes for me, and I got on the elevator and I got put out in the back alley somewhere. Yeah, it was a really interesting experience, I’m thankful to have it, thankful things are better now. But so at that point, I was really impressed that I actually could do a lot more than I thought.

Oscar Boyd 04:32

So how did your thinking evolve from this as a country I want to visit on vacation to deciding that you know what, I'm going to live in Japan.

Josh Grisdale 04:40

Well one of the things was when I was heading towards Narita that I kind of felt sad to be going and I think that you know, as the Tokyo melted away and there's more and more rice fields and, and then aloof of a sudden I’m at this airport and it kind of felt, you know, I felt like I was leaving something that was important to me and so I came back a number of times on vacation and every time I came I was really impressed with how the accessibility had improved as much as it did, the places that I hadn’t been able to go to before I gradually became able to visit those places. And so I really, you know, thought made me think that, you know, Japan is a place I could live and I want to try to explore it more long term. So I came here, for the first time in 2007, to live.

Oscar Boyd 05:19

Were there any challenges in actually getting a visa to come here and live as someone with a disability?

Josh Grisdale 05:25

The first time I came here, I know I actually had a job lined up. So that was able, like, as long as it's more of the company that's the issue, than the actual Japanese Government in terms of, you know, blocking those kinds of things. So I had a job lined up, so and they were fine with me, because I had, because I’d come a number of times, and I'd met them other times, I've worked with them as a volunteer, but you can't really start getting into the welfare system immediately, of course, so I came over with somebody to for about half a year with me. So until things got settled, so they were sure with that and also, you know, if it didn't work out, we could always go back. So that wasn't as much of an issue.

Oscar Boyd 06:06

I'm sure it's a very different picture between the cities, the suburbs and the countryside of Japan. But how would you evaluate the country's accessibility in 2021? Because when I compare Tokyo, for instance, to somewhere like London, Tokyo actually seems to be leagues ahead, at least in some aspects when it comes to accessibility. For example, I was looking at the London tube map the other day, and the number of stations and particularly the older ones in central London that have no accessible entrance or exit of any kind, actually kind of shocked me, especially as it seems like basically, every station in Japan has some form of access for wheelchair users now.

Josh Grisdale 06:45

Yeah, actually, I was surprised as well, I heard somebody else speaking in a presentation and they were mentioning about, you know, New York, this percent is, only this percentage accessible, in London, only this percent, in Paris, only this percent and so that really shocked me as well, because I just assumed that they'd be good. But Japan, I think, is definitely a world leader in terms of infrastructure for mobility, you know, I got inspired to use public transit when I was here in Japan, because of how great the system worked, and just a little bit of a description so if you're using a wheelchair, what you do is you go to the ticket gate, after you buy your ticket, and you tell the station staff where it is you want to go. And then they will either guide you to the track or tell you where to meet somewhere, and then you get there and they put down a ramp for you to get onto the train because there's a there's a gap between the train and the platform. And then once you get on the train, they actually call ahead either where you're going to be transferring, even if it's a different train line or different company, as well as to your destination, telling them the exact time you'll be there. And when you arrive, somebody's waiting there for you with the ramp to help you off. And they'll often guide you out of the station if you need it. So I’d actually be lost if I had to do it myself. I've been living here for all this time, I probably get lost in Tokyo stations for sure.

Oscar Boyd 07:54

Like especially for somewhere like Shinjuku, that would actually be quite nice to have someone who could help you out.

Josh Grisdale 07:58

Just kind of switch off my mind, just follow the guy in front of me. But yeah, so when I went back to Toronto, one of the times I wanted to try it and I was a little bit shocked at the fact that they didn't have the same system for helping somebody on a sort of like, you know, if there's the gap is small enough you can get on. But thing is, you know, if you get to your destination, the gap isn't, you know, is bigger than you know how are you gonna get off kind of thing. So it's definitely, I was really appreciative of what it's like in Japan. That's definitely in the cities right now they have the laws that require that a train station with over 3,000 daily users is required to have some form of accessible route. Now, usually, ideally, that's an elevator, sometimes they need to use lifts that are attached to the stairs that sort of slowly go up. And so it's not necessarily always ideal. But in general 96% of the stations and that's a lot of stations in Tokyo, are accessible, the further you go out into the country, of course, that's going to go down. Because there are fewer users there, they’re trying to change that as well to even if it's not 3,000 daily users, if it's an essential station, they want to apply that as well. But then you get to other issues as well with, in the country because you know, a city in the country might only have two stops on the train line and that's not going to get you everywhere in the city. So you need to rely on buses. And all the buses, I would say in Tokyo or Osaka or Kyoto are accessible, the smaller the city, the fewer lines and buses that are accessible due to budget constraints.

Oscar Boyd 09:23

And so you've been here since 2007. So that's almost 14 years. Well, how have things changed in terms of accessibility over that period of time that you've lived in Japan?

Josh Grisdale 09:33

I think that it's been harder to see. The first couple times there'll be always like a two-year gap between coming so it’d be a huge difference but, so because I'm always here now it's not easy to see the differences but, you know, thinking back to a number of years before even there are a lot more places they can go to for sure. The laws have been a lot more solidified and new ones, the accessibility laws they also now require people who have disabilities to sit on the observation boards. So it’s a feedback back into the system, so I'm actually on one of those. So I think it’s definitely improving. And I think obviously, this year, the events coming up this year and happenings here, have had a big part in that.

Oscar Boyd 10:28

What prompted you to set up Accessible Japan?

Josh Grisdale 10:31

I guess I really wanted this website I wish I had back when I first came to Japan, if that makes sense? So when I first came again, this, you know, maybe if there was anything on accessibility, it would be maybe the back of a Lonely Planet guide book, where it woudl say, “You know, it's difficult in a wheelchair,” and that was about it, you know? Yeah, so that's one thing I wanted. And I had been traveling myself within Japan. And I realized that, you know, as I learned Japanese more and more, I was realizing that, you know, I'd look in English at first, and there'd be nothing, but then if I looked in Japanese, I would find something usually, and it's still very much the case today. And I realized that, you know, there's a lot of people that probably want to come visit Japan, but don't have the, the ability to read Japanese or have access to that information. And so I serve two purposes for the website. The first is that I want to encourage people that Japan is an accessible destination. I think a lot of people, you know, I think, in the same way for somebody from Asia, might look at Europe, and they put, you know, Spain and Sweden, and, you know, in Greece, all in the same basket, and that's Europe, but they're all different, very different countries and different systems, etc. In the same way, a lot of people I think put, you know, Japan in with the rest of Asia, and, you know, it's lumped in with, you know, China and Thailand and Philippines, and maybe the images, you know, at least crowded trains and steps everywhere in the throngs of people, that will be impossible to get around. So, I want to dispel that image of Japan not being an accessible destination, and to encourage people that yeah, you can come here and you can have a great time. Even if you have a disability.

Oscar Boyd 12:07

Well, it’s a fantastically useful site. Not only does it have information for wheelchair users but it's also got info for people with guide dogs, a whole dictionary of disability language in Japan. And you also, I noticed, do plenty of YouTube videos as well. One of the ones I watched was of you traveling around Sensoji the temple in Asakusa, which was really cool. And I didn't realize they actually had a very craftily hidden, disabled elevator, which blends in almost perfectly with the shrine it’s painted red and designed to look like a part of the shrine, you wouldn't even notice it was there unless you were looking very hard for it.

Josh Grisdale 12:42

Well, they have to actually put a sign on it to say this is the elevator because they did such a good job for that. Yeah. Um, so it's definitely been a growing process for myself as well, I have I use a powered wheelchair to get around. So naturally, my point of view has been from wheelchair users. So that was where it started. But I realized, you know, as I'd get contacted from others, you know, who have disabilities, but not necessarily mobility disabilities, you know, I was really challenged with the fact that, you know, I really don't know everything about accessibility and disability, and is an opportunity to learn a lot more. But I want to do my best to find the answers that the people, the people had. So that's where you know, the information on bringing your guide dog, for example, or bringing medications to Japan, those kinds of things where you know, the fruit of, you know, interacting with people and learning from other people.

Oscar Boyd 13:30

You've painted quite a positive image of Japan. So far in terms of the accessibility, you've described it as a bit of a world leader in terms of its physical infrastructure, but what do you find are the main sticking points here in terms of accessibility,

Josh Grisdale 13:45

in terms of accessibility, the physical environment. I would say that the public spaces infrastructure things that the government has relationship to are that you know, the basics, they're quite good, but it's sort of more the public sector — sorry, the private sector — so restaurants and stores, etc., tend to be less accessible than you'd find in other countries I feel. Part of that is sort of it can't be helped because Tokyo is just, you know, sort of squished in and that you know, a lot of places build up rather than out. And because of that, you're gonna get a lot more crammed shops. I think there's some parts of it that are sort of culturally related to Japan in terms of having a “genkan” or the step into a building. So you know, there's some places that you know, obviously just because of, you know, rain, etc., that they want to step there. But unfortunately, sometimes you see an artificial use of the genkan, or more of a cultural use I guess you could say. So if you're going to, for example, think this was a while back, I went to Ikebukuro, the Sunshine, which is one of the big tower department stores and I went to the top floor where they usually restaurants, and I think about 10, maybe nearly half of them, I had to step into them, even though there's absolutely no physical need for it is the building's completely accessible there are even accessible toilets available on the floor, but just for the ambience and atmosphere for the restaurant, they'd put steps in. And that meant that of course, I couldn't get into them. So I think there's a lack of education in terms of accessibility for the private sector, but also a lot of physical barriers in that area. I think people have a lot of trouble when they come, they want to eat Japanese food, but a lot of those places tend to be the most inaccessible.

Oscar Boyd 15:23

Well, yes, if you take ramen as an example of one of the foods that most people want to eat when they visit Japan, a lot of those shops are incredibly narrowly squeezed into tiny back alleys and pretty hard to negotiate.

Josh Grisdale 15:33

Yeah and the stools are fixed down and stuff like that, yes.

Oscar Boyd 15:37

You said you were on some kind of oversight board or observation board earlier. What does that involve?

Josh Grisdale 15:43

Yeah, it's one of the oversight boards for the Ministry of the Secretary of Land, Technology, Tourism, I've been actually involved with the Japanese Tourism Agency, the official government one, for about three years now, I guess, they have a program for promoting accessible tourism and giving grants different, different entities in that in that field. And through that contact, I guess it was, I was invited to be on one of the boards for overseeing any of the you know we’ll get the reports of what has been changed in the last time, we have an opportunity to lift up, you know, challenges, etc. And say that, you know, I think this should be changed, or this is this is the current problem that a lot of people are facing. So I've been on that for about two years now. And I'm also on a few for local ones in Edogawa, as well,

Oscar Boyd 16:32

OK, and, you know, when you have conversations at that level, do you find that it's quite an open and easy conversation to have about why things need to improve, or how things should improve? Or again, are there kind of sticking points in that when you're trying to advocate for increased accessibility?

Josh Grisdale 16:47

Yeah, I mean, the one for accessible tourism was a very compact group, I think there's only about, like, five members, and then a couple of maybe four or five more from the government. So it's great. And it's just a small meeting room. So it was really easy to, to speak freely. But the one for the you know, the federal government, I think there's maybe 50 people on the board and then there's all the people taking notes, etc., all around. So we're in this huge room with, I think, maybe probably near 100 people. So it can be quite nerve-wracking to, to say anything lately it's been on, it's been on Zoom, so it's been a little bit easier to say something. It's a great opportunity and I'll say I've been actually, I've heard feedback on some of the things I've suggested from one meeting to the other, a question I brought up about the new accessible taxis in Japan, and the apps that they use, and desire for that to be improved. And they actually, the ministry reached out to some of the companies and encouraged them along that path, and one of the companies did make a change. So it's definitely encouraging to see people actually listen to the opinions and taking action on them.

Oscar Boyd 17:50

You said that there's quite a difference between the public sector and the private sector, and maybe anything related to the government might have quite good accessibility but often it's the private sector where you find these obstacles and barriers. Do you advocate within that space as well and talk to individuals’ establishments and say, here's how you could improve? And again, if you do, like, is that an easy conversation to have? Do you find people open to it?

Josh Grisdale 18:12

Yeah, it depends, I do that on a couple of different fronts I guess. One of the actual government requirements lately is that for a lot of companies, particularly related to tourism or transportation, etc., have to have main inclusivity training, I guess you could say this, once a year, they'll have their staff, you know, attend a seminar where somebody, you know, they're speaking, so I've had the opportunity to speak for the limousine bus company from the airports. This year, I'll be speaking at a sort of all-staff meeting for a large airline. So I mean, those are more formal ones that I've been involved with, but also just, you know, wherever I go out, I always make a point of trying to just be as vocal as I can about you know, thanking people for accessibility they've done or the people know that it's, you know, if you do this might be better might be able to welcome more customers, stuff like that. So, it is, yeah, trying to incorporate it in my life as much as possible.

Oscar Boyd 19:13

Obviously, the Paralympics are going on, as we are recording this, have you noticed specific change in terms of accessibility in relation to the Paralympics over the last few years?

Josh Grisdale 19:21

Yeah, I would definitely say so. I felt that Japan has been moving in the direction of accessibility and inclusion in general, but I think having the Olympics, Paralympics serving as a catalyst. I think, you know, there are definitely requirements that the bigger Paralympic committees have for the cities that are the hosts that sort of act as guidelines for those and then the desire to meet those guidelines, of course, by the government. So that's definitely been increasing, increasing but also even in society at large I've noticed a lot more discussion about the Olympics and Paralympics for even just now in the news, you they say the Olympics and Paralympics as opposed to before when I was a kid, it was always just the Olympics and then, oh yeah, the Paralympics. And I think also the government always wants to put a good foot forward for the people who did not end up coming. But for example, recently, the shinkansen, they've made some improvements to the accessible seating. Before, it's only that you had two spots, maybe in the train available, usually had to book them possibly a month in advance, you can't book them online so you'd have to go to the ticket station at the station. So the people who have the most challenges in moving around have to do the most moving in order to get on the train, and even then you have to wait a long time, etc. But, you know, there's been a number of groups and disability advocate groups that have been asking for improvements to that. And I think that because of the Olympics and Paralympics, you know, the desire to put a, you know, a good foot forward, I think that those plans were better listened to and faster implemented on than they might have in the past.

Oscar Boyd 20:57

What do you think needs to happen going forward to kind of keep up the momentum of the Paralympics? And, you know, keep improving Japan's accessibility?

Josh Grisdale 21:05

Yeah, I think that we're very fortunate here in Japan, because in 2025, they have Osaka World Fair coming as well. So that's gonna be another big event where western Japan will be focusing on welcoming people from around the world as well. So probably a lot of them will come through Tokyo as well, right. So it's, I think there's another big event to keep people focused on that. But in the meantime, I think the most important thing, that maybe the disabled community, and people who want to come visit Japan, to do is to just go out and use the new infrastructure to be seen, to be visible, I think it's very, very important. I think that, you know, just by being seen, you know, it has this effect on people to note, realize that “Oh, people like that are part of our society, people like that also want to go to a convenience store, people want to go to the restaurants.” And, you know, I think it's compared to the formation of Earth, you know, where it's like, there's been all these rocks, hurling around, and they bump into each other, and they cause explosions, and all these kind of things — probably not explosions, but they cause a lot of ruckus — but in the end, you know, that's how the Earth was formed, it's become, you know, a much more beautiful place than just a chunk of rocks. And so I think that those, those collisions are very important. And so I just hope that people from the disabled community, take advantage of that to go out to do the things they want to do, to be seen doing them and to the things that they can't do to ask, you know, “Hey, I want to do this as well. Can, how can you help me do that? Or how can you change so that I can do that myself,” but also people, you know, from government, public/private sector as well, just to have an attitude change of the importance of inclusive design and accessibility, to realize that it isn't just something that needs to be tacked on afterwards to meet requirements, but that it has a real positive effect for society at large.

Oscar Boyd 22:59

And could you explain that point a little bit further for me? Why do you believe that increased accessibility is better for society at large?

Josh Grisdale 23:05

Yes, I think that increased accessibility or inclusive design is good for a number of reasons. I mean, it's definitely an investment in your future, in terms of, you know, you never know when you might become disabled yourself. Even temporarily, a lot of people I know through Accessible Japan have contacted about renting a wheelchair because they broke their leg before their trip, but they didn’t want to cancel their tickets or, or they, they're pregnant, and it was difficult to get around. Or a lot of people, you know, contact about renting wheelchairs because they're traveling with their grandparents, and it’d just be easier for them to get on with that. So I think that to remember that universal design and accessible features are for everyone and very helpful for them. But also, I think there's a huge economic benefit as well. I mean, right now, I think in the U.K. it’s called the “purple pound,” and it's sort of the economic impact that people with disabilities have. And I think it's much larger than a lot of people think and you know, it's not just the people with disabilities themselves, but it's also their family and friends. For example, in my family, when we went, we’d choose a vacation destination, of course, they didn't choose the place that I can go to with as well. So you know, if you have a choice A, B, and C, but B and C are not accessible by default, we're gonna go to A and we might become repeaters. And so that's a family of five going there because one member as a disability.

Oscar Boyd 24:23

Yeah, that's really interesting, I hadn't really thought about the ripple effects of the extended network of disabled people. Something we haven't really talked about, but related to your point about how universal access can benefit so many people is Japan's aging population. Do you think that Japan, having one of the oldest populations on Earth, is actually helping drive the increase in accessibility here?

Josh Grisdale 24:45

Yeah, if I'm incorrect you’ll have to fact-check me afterwards, but I believe that the first priority seats were originally invented for the elderly, and I think that, you know, sort of changed from there, it's also for people who are pregnant and for people who have disabilities as well. So I think definitely has had an impact on the focus of it. And I, and I've always consider them my allies, actually, once I was at a shrine in Miyazaki, and I didn't expect it to be accessible. And when I got there, there was actually a ramp going up over the steps. And I was kind of like, impressed with that. It's like, “Oh, I wonder why, it’s not a huge, you know, famous place.” But there was a wedding going on and both of the grandparents were in wheelchairs. So I think the you know, as the society is getting older here in Japan, that there are going to be a lot of people that, you know, think about accessibility for the first time, as they realize that their grandparents or their parents want to be active in the community still, but just need a little bit more help or accommodation, or a different style of getting into a building.

Oscar Boyd 25:52

We spent most of this episode focusing on the infrastructural challenges facing disabled people. But I'd like to wrap up by asking from a societal perspective, what do you see as the biggest challenge going forward for disabled people here in Japan? Or, you know, what do you see as the biggest opportunity for change?

Josh Grisdale 26:10

I think the biggest next challenge is definitely going to be education. It's all different around the world, of course, but for example, in Canada, that you go to your local elementary school, then your local middle school, and your local high school, and then from there on, you go to university, college, etc. And the government is required for making those public school systems accessible for everyone. So I was able to go to the same high school that all my friends went to, etc. Whereas in Japan, a lot of people, more recently have been able to go to the local public schools and in the middle schools, with their friends. And the schools themselves are becoming more accessible. Actually, just recently, they've mandated that elementary schools and middle schools, because they're used for evacuations, they must have, you know, accessible toilets, must have a ramp to get in, and must have an elevator. So they are changing those things. But unfortunately, there's that level at which it goes from middle school to high school, whereas you don't go to your local high school here in Japan. Well, you will, you can if you'd like to, but a lot of people, they'll write exams and they'll go to a different school, it might be in a completely different part of the town, or even sometimes people go different parts the country because of that, you know, opportunities that has for their future career, etc. And a lot of times that hasn't been open to people with disabilities a lot of times people who have disabilities will go to a special school for people with disabilities, which then sort of limits their opportunities for afterwards, and because it's not necessarily a government run school, high school, there's not the same requirements for making it accessible. So I think that that makes it a bit more difficult, or quite a bit more difficult, possibly, for people with disabilities to be involved in education at the same level as their peers, to be seen by their peers, you know, instead of being sheltered away, but then also going on to higher education and career opportunities. The more people have the opportunities to get education and be involved in that way, they'll have more opportunities to be involved in the workforce as well. And then just it's being seen more in society, I think will take Japan to the next step of inclusion, diversity.

Oscar Boyd 28:10

Josh, thank you very much.

Josh Grisdale 28:12

My pleasure.

Shaun McKenna 28:17

Once again, that was Josh Grisdale. Speaking with Oscar Boyd. Big thanks to Josh for sharing his expertise with our listeners. We hope you found his insight useful. For the latest information and advice on accessible travel in Japan check out Josh's site Accessible Japan. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. Lastly, our little hiatus will be ending soon, so be on the lookout for new episodes of Deep Dive in the coming weeks. And if you liked the show, consider leaving us a review on your podcast platform of choice as it helps other people discover our show more easily.

Deep Dive is produced by Dave Cortez. Our outgoing song is by Oscar Boyd and our theme music is by the Japanese musician LLLL. I'm Shaun McKenna, podtsukaresama.