Australia in final stage of vetting submarine bids

JIJI

The Australian government has begun its final evaluation of bids from Japan, Germany and France to choose the maker of its next-generation submarine.

Canberra is expected to make its decision by the end of June after closely examining the construction proposals of the three countries.

While the specifics have not been disclosed, there is speculation Japan is leading its two rivals in terms of cost.

Australia plans to construct 8 to 12 new submarines in a project worth 20 billion Australian dollars. Including long-term maintenance expenses, the total cost is seen ballooning to about AU$50 billion.

Starting in the mid-2020s, the country will replace its aging Collins-class submarines with the next-generation ships.

According to local media reports, the Australian government will likely be able to squeeze construction expenditures by more than AU$5 billion due to the heated competition.

The Japanese government has asked Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd., the joint makers of the Maritime Self-Defense Force’s Soryu-class submarine, not to place priority on profitability in the bidding war. As a result, they could possibly have an edge over the German and French companies, informed sources said.

Political leaders in the competing countries are also working hard to secure the Australian contract.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe emphasized the quiet non-nuclear submarine’s advanced technology and other benefits to Australian counterpart Malcolm Turnbull when they met in Tokyo last month during the leader’s first visit to Japan since taking office in September.

Meanwhile, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has reportedly warned the Australian side that Canberra’s relations with China could deteriorate if it awards the submarine contract to Japan, whose ties with an increasingly assertive China have recently been strained.

In April 2014, the Abe administration lifted the government’s long-standing blanket ban on arms exports by adopting new guidelines on defense equipment transfers abroad. If the Japanese bid is successful, it would mark Tokyo’s first large-scale defense export deal under the guidelines.

Still, there is unease within sectors of Japanese society over arms exports. During Turnbull’s visit to Japan, a demonstration to oppose submarine sales to Australia took place.

  • TV Monitor

    The Soryu was finished when Japan announced the resumption of whaling against the UN ICJ ban that Australia obtained against Japan.

    Abe and his cronies are too dumb to realize that.

    • http://www.sheldonthinks.com/ Andrew Sheldon

      I think the Aust govt could care less about the whales….or even the dolphins. lol

    • Tachomanx

      Yeah, a whole country is going to forgo an important relationship and shoot itself on the foot over a minor issue like a small whaling expedition…

      You sure love your fantasies.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        a minor issue like a small whaling expedition

        Whaling is a major major political issue in Australia. Another evidence of how clueless Japanese are about outside world.

      • Tachomanx

        Not likely since the greens are a very small minority in Australian politics and the country have far more important issues to worry about like the drop in ommodity prices, security issues, immigration issues, economic woes, etc…

        This is just you pushing your dreams to color your reality.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        And oh this.

        Meanwhile, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has reportedly warned the Australian side that Canberra’s relations with China could deteriorate if it awards the submarine contract to Japan, whose ties with an increasingly assertive China have recently been strained.

        Australia can buy its subs from anyone but Japan. Anyone but Japan.

      • Tachomanx

        You sure bark a lot.

        Of course Miss Merkel will say such things to clinch a deal for her inexistent submarine which is likely to have as many issues as the Type 214 if not even more.

        Australia in turn may want to strengthen it’s alliance with the U.S. through a deal with Japan since China just warned it may start shooting it’s planes in the SCS despite being in observance of international law.
        Is Australia so cowardly it will bend the knee to China?

        And try to have a better argument that Turnbull having a chinese relative or a chinese dietist. That’s rather lazy on your part.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Miss Merkel

        Merkel is married.

        Is Australia so cowardly it will bend the knee to China?

        Once again, you are talking about a PM with a Chinese daughter in law, a high ranking CCP official in law, a Chinese grandson, a Chinese medicine doctor, etc.

      • Tachomanx

        LOL

        Again, you lack better and more insightful reasons.
        How about paying attention to Turnbull’s actions and words?
        The man called China a grave threat, had a plane conduct a FONOP run by the SCS and now China has warned with shooting down Australia’s aircrfaft.
        Also, Australia is likely to koin India the U.S. and Japan in yearly naval drills and participate in it’s own naval FONOP in the SCS.

        What do you say to this? Or Turnbul now has a chinese gardener and fortune teller as well?

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Or Turnbul now has a chinese gardener and fortune teller as well?

        Who knows?

      • Tachomanx

        No arguments huh? Guess I made my point.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Blood is thicker than diplomacy.

      • Tachomanx

        Unlikely as Turnbull has to look after his people and not after a few relatives well being.

        And given his precarious position which has seen several PM’s walts through, he won’t risk rocking the boat too much.

        And again, no arguments.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Unlikely as Turnbull has to look after his people

        This is why Turnbull will not offend China, because Australia’s export economy heavily depends on China and not on Japan.

      • Tachomanx

        Japan is Australia’s second largest trade partner and with Australia in need of shifting away from commodities now that they are at at record low prices and unlikely to ever recover to boom period, the country is less vulnerable to a country that still need trade, resource origins and investments.

        Turnbull also has to keep the all important alliance with the U.S. in place and now that China has threatened Australia, it isn’t likely the man will get intimidated else he loses all respect from the voters and his conservative party members.

        Again you ignore reality and present no solid arguments.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Japan is Australia’s second largest trade partner

        China is first, twice as big an export market as Japan is.

        Turnbull also has to keep the all important alliance with the U.S. in place

        The US won’t object when Australia buys French or German subs.

      • Tachomanx

        And with Australia wanting to detach itself from commodities and China getting all aggressive, best to have a reliable buddy around.

        The U.S. won’t object, but it is actively looking for two of it’s allies in the region to work closer with one another and the fact that Australia will join yearly naval drills with India, the U.S. and Japan is a good sign of things to come.
        And all things point to Australia leaning for the japanese option due to the many reasons I already educated you in.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        And with Australia wanting to detach itself from commodities

        Australia can’t.

        The U.S. won’t object

        And most importantly, China won’t object to Australia buying European subs.

      • Tachomanx

        It’s already on the process of having more than commodities as an economic engine.

        Australia doesn’t care much what China has to say these days if the FONOP and the coming naval drills with it’s rivals are anything to go by.
        Also, given Australia’s distance from China, they wouldn’t object much to them getting japanese submarines as much as they would if it was Vietnam or Taiwan.
        Australia also puts a lot of stock on it’s alliance with the U.S. so they are likely to listen to the latter’s desire for increased cooperation with it’s asian ally.
        Australia is also poised to get proven technology and even worker training in Japan on advanced submarine construction techniques so they don’t really have anything to lose.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Also, given Australia’s distance from China, they wouldn’t object much
        to them getting japanese submarines as much as they would if it was
        Vietnam or Taiwan.

        It is the close military co-operation with Japan having resulted from the purchase of Soryu that China objects to. After all, sub purchase isn’t like buying a car and Australian navy needs to work with JMSDF for the training for a decade. This is why China has warned Australia not to buy Japanese subs.

        so they don’t really have anything to lose.

        Australia faces Chinese sanctions on Australian commodities export, the single biggest export market for Australia more than twice as large as Japan.

      • Tachomanx

        China hasn’t made warnings much less actually made public statements on the issue as they do about it’s many neighbors when they get fighters from Korea or patrol boats from Japan.

        And Australia is already going to be working closely with Japan with the coming permanent yearly naval drills next to India and the U.S.

        Chinese sanctions when the country’s own economy is slowing down severely? Unlikely as China doesn’t want to give Australia even further reasons to get closer to the U.S. and Japan.
        Not to mention that such sanctions against a U.S. ally are likely to prompt U.S. sanctions against China and start an ugly diplomatic conflict that the CCP isn’t likely to win or get involved into to begin with.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        China hasn’t made warnings

        Such warnings are made government to government, since making them public backfires. Turnbull already got the message from Beijing and his in-law, and is using the Soryu bid to extract a better term from European bidders, when in fact the Soryu bid is doomed due to repeated Chinese warnings and domestic Australia opposition against Japanese whaling.

        Remember that Australia isn’t the only suppliers of commodities, China can simply tell its importers to import from somewhere else whenever possible and Australia’s economy gets a massive hit.

      • Tachomanx

        So you basically have no evidence and this is just unveriable dribel that goes against common modus operandi of the CCP which basically makes public it’s every complain to every country it has a beef with…

        Unlikely China will further antagonize it’s regional neighbors even more and strengthen the reasons to have the U.S. relocate in the region en masse and potentially have sanctions against it be placed by Australia’s allies like the U.S.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        So you basically have no evidence

        Even Angela Merkel speaks of Chinese warning against Australia. It is a common knowledge. Only you and your fellow Japanese are in denial.

      • Tachomanx

        Angela Merkel is simply being a salesman that instead of saying why their country offers the best tries to scare Australia away from the actual best offer on the table. Afterall, Germany has no interest beyond selling submarines in this matter so they are safe to say whatever they want.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Angela Merkel is simply being a salesman

        At this level of diplomacy involving head of states, lies don’t work.

        What Merkel said is true, there will be Chinese retributions if Australia bought the Soryu, and Japan offers no plan on how they would offset the economic losses from Chinese retributions.

        So Turnbull as the PM of Australia has no choice but to buy European subs, because Japan cannot make up for the lost exports to China.

      • Tachomanx

        Heads of states act on behalf of their country’s corporations all the time so don’t come to me as ignorant of this fact.

        With commodities down and Asutralia shifting away from such dependancy, getting advanced naval construction technologies and techniques seems like a good long term trade off.

        And again, with China not making any official statements on the matter but actually threatening Australia with violence, they are making Japan’s case even stronger.
        Turnbull can’t let himself and the country be intimidated by China as this would give the signal to the CCP that Australia is weak and can be pushed around for more demands like ending it’s alliance with the U.S. avoid assisting it’s rivals in the region and refuse participation on the joint naval drills.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        getting advanced naval construction technologies and techniques seems like a good long term trade off.

        Europeans are offering a higher percentage of local construction.

        Turnbull can’t let himself and the country be intimidated by China as this would give the signal to the CCP

        China uses its sticks and carrots effectively, meaning there is a reward if Turnbull rejects Japanese subs as demanded by China.

      • Tachomanx

        Japan already offered 100% local construction with a worker training program in Japan. Just as you actually suggested Japan should do to secure the bid.

        China uses what well? Guess Vietnam, Philippines, India, Taiwan and even Korea didn’t get the memo on that one if the past couple of years are anything to go by.
        And Malaysia losing patience, Myanmar putting distance and INdonesia quietly building up it’s navy are also great accomplishments of China’s sticks and harvest of carrots.

        Also, China hasn’t made any statements on the matter and they have a penchant for making them very loud and very clear. So China has stayed quiet on the matter and the fact that it has threatened Australia with violence doesn’t bode well for any demands it wants to make from it.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Japan already offered 100% local construction

        Duh, are you saying Japan will build the engine, lithium ion battery, computers, sensors in Australia? Is that even possible?

        I repeat, Japan has the lowest percentage of local construction offered among three bidders, French bid is the highest at something like 78%.

      • Tachomanx

        Assembly will be 100% local and though some components must be imported, most of the work will be awarded to local workforce and local companies. Australia doesn’t make batteries so is within the expected.

        In any case, as cost is the biggest importance, Japan is shaping up to be the best option in terms of cost and technology transfers.
        Australia also get full technology transfer so eventually stuff that needs to be done in Japan may get done in Australia at some point in the future.
        Plus Australia gets to be a possible candidate for future developments and maintenance for not only it’s own submarines but those from Japan as well. A win-win everywhere.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        Assembly will be 100% local

        Once again, Japan offers the least Australia sourced content.

        A win-win everywhere.

        A win-loss situation. Australia’s loss that is. Your problem is that your inability to see from the other side’s perspective.

      • Tachomanx

        And the most cost effective option alongside the transfer of all technologies integrated on the submarine.
        Which is a boon for the future development of Australia’s naval industry.

        And government decisions often go for the least expensive option that yields the highest results and Japan is shaping up to the be the best option for that.
        This is just you spouting your hatred…as usual. How about a new trick?

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        And government decisions often go for the least expensive option that yields the highest results

        The Japanese option is the costliest after factoring in Chinese economic retaliations.

      • Tachomanx

        Until I see a chinese spokesperson saying Australia shouldn’t, as it has warned it’s many neighbors (To little effect mind you) I just can’t take seriously a loon who speaks of a land invasion of Japan or whatnot.

        And if China doesn’t want sanctions implemented against it. then it won’t dare impose them on others. Particularly U.S. allies.

        Japan is shaping up to be the best option in terms of net gain and cost and that simply burns your sad angry little person too much.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        And if China doesn’t want sanctions implemented against it. then it won’t dare impose them on others. Particularly U.S. allies.

        No one, I repeat no one including Japan, will put a sanction on China for putting a sanction on Australia.

        Australia is painfully aware that Japan cannot make up for the losses from the Chinese economic sanctions.

      • Tachomanx

        The U.S. will if one of it’s allies is being targeted unilaterally regarding a sovereign decision related to it’s own defense.
        Not to mention that such a move by China wouldn’t help it’s stance with the rest of the region or the world as a responsible and respectful world power. Nevermind it’s grand official stance of non interferance with foreign affairs.

        So really your argument is based on nothing but your own paranoid delusions.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        The U.S. will if one of it’s allies is being targeted unilaterally regarding a sovereign decision related to it’s own defense.

        I assure you the US won’t sanction China over this due to the fear of China sanctioning US businesses in China(GM, Ford, Apple, Walmart, Hollywood studios, etc).

        Beside, the Chinese warning to Australia was discreet, so the Chinese punishment too will be discreet, where Chinese importers are simply told not to import from Australia. Then Australia watches its export to China halve, all this without a single official statement from the Chinese government.

      • Tachomanx

        If China puts a sanction on Australia, the U.S. would be forced to sanction China in return, particularly over a sovereign decision as is defense issues. Like when China warned Korea not to set up THAAD and considering Korea’s absolute dependance on China one would think that KOrea would have submitted but they didn’t.

        The same case is on Australia which is less dependant on China than Korea is and as such has no reason to listen to what China says on it’s defense policies.

        This is just another case of you projecting your sick wishes on reality and it hitting you back as always.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        U.S. would be forced to sanction China in return

        I assure you the US won’t. The force is strong with Corporate Lobby in the US.

        Like when China warned Korea not to set up THAAD and considering
        Korea’s absolute dependance on China one would think that KOrea would
        have submitted but they didn’t.

        Huh? There is no THAAD deployment in Korea.

        The same case is on Australia which is less dependant on China than
        Korea is and as such has no reason to listen to what China says on it’s
        defense policies.

        President Park doesn’t have a personal relation with China.
        Prime Minister Turnbull does have a personal family blood relation with China and CCP high ranking officials.

      • Tachomanx

        Considering how much of the political spectrum is becoming increasingly anti-China, they’ll act accordingly. Besides, these are allies on every sense and Australia has marched on loyally with the U.S. these past 15 years of adventurism.
        If China is as foolish as to enact sanctions, and officially be done with the non-interference policy, then it will be in a world of trouble and damaged relationships around the world.

        Certainly isn’t, but China made a very clear warning of it when the possible deployment was being considered.
        Korea showed that despite it’s vital dependance on China it wasn’t about to be bullied around on security matters. Australia has even less reasons to.

        Still on with Turnbull’s flimsy relationships and ignoring the man’s many anti-China deeds and words? Rejecting reality doesn’t make it go away you know?

      • Tachomanx

        And the most cost effective option alongside the transfer of all technologies integrated on the submarine.
        Which is a boon for the future development of Australia’s naval industry.

        And government decisions often go for the least expensive option that yields the highest results and Japan is shaping up to the be the best option for that.
        This is just you spouting your hatred…as usual. How about a new trick?

      • Tachomanx

        Assembly will be 100% local and though some components must be imported, most of the work will be awarded to local workforce and local companies. Australia doesn’t make batteries so is within the expected.

        In any case, as cost is the biggest importance, Japan is shaping up to be the best option in terms of cost and technology transfers.
        Australia also get full technology transfer so eventually stuff that needs to be done in Japan may get done in Australia at some point in the future.
        Plus Australia gets to be a possible candidate for future developments and maintenance for not only it’s own submarines but those from Japan as well. A win-win everywhere.

      • Tachomanx

        Assembly will be 100% local and though some components must be imported, most of the work will be awarded to local workforce and local companies. Australia doesn’t make batteries so is within the expected.

        In any case, as cost is the biggest importance, Japan is shaping up to be the best option in terms of cost and technology transfers.
        Australia also get full technology transfer so eventually stuff that needs to be done in Japan may get done in Australia at some point in the future.
        Plus Australia gets to be a possible candidate for future developments and maintenance for not only it’s own submarines but those from Japan as well. A win-win everywhere.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        getting advanced naval construction technologies and techniques seems like a good long term trade off.

        Europeans are offering a higher percentage of local construction.

        Turnbull can’t let himself and the country be intimidated by China as this would give the signal to the CCP

        China uses its sticks and carrots effectively, meaning there is a reward if Turnbull rejects Japanese subs as demanded by China.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        The first official details of the KSS-III has been revealed by the ROK Navy.

        1. 10 SLBM VLS launchers.
        2. Underwater endurance of greater than 45 days thanks to hydrogen-oxygen fuel cell.
        3. A nuclear reactor module option for Hull No. 4~9. Hull No. 1~3 will be diesel electric + fuel cell.
        4. Hull No. 1 will launch in 2018, enter service by 2020.

        It is sad that Australia gets to miss out this Soryu killer in the current sub contest.

      • Tachomanx

        Better hope that thing doesn’t turn out like the Type 214!

        Also, don’t forget the many borrowed technologies going into the KSS-III for which Australia would have to pay as well in case it was ever interested in them.

      • TV Monitor

        Tachomanx

        don’t forget the many borrowed technologies going into the KSS-III

        – Combat system : Local
        – VLS : Local
        – Propulsion : Local
        – Battery : Local
        – Fuel-Cell : Local. I believe this is similar to the Soyuz fuel cell.
        – SLBM : Local
        – Torpedo : Local