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Foreign Joso flood victims hit out at city’s monolingual response

by and

Staff Writers

One week after an unprecedented flood overwhelmed the city of Joso in Ibaraki Prefecture, Japanese-Brazilian resident David Kiyoshi Shibata believes it’s a miracle he’s still alive.

Despite being 185 cm tall, Shibata says he found himself completely engulfed by the deluge and had to fight hard to keep his head above the surging waters. He narrowly escaped death by taking refuge on the roof of a nearby house, but in the process a fragment of broken glass sliced open his wrist, leaving a wound that required five stitches.

None of this, however, would have happened had the city of Joso warned of the approaching danger over a loudspeaker in languages other than Japanese, the Sao Paulo native says.

“I didn’t understand a thing about what they were saying,” said Shibata, a 35-year-old former construction worker. Although he speaks conversational Japanese, he could not understand the loudspeaker announcement.

“Japanese people had plenty of time to escape, it seemed, but my friends and I didn’t because we didn’t understand the warning. Even if we wanted to call for help, we didn’t know what to say. I really thought we were going to die,” he said.

Shibata is one of more than 4,000 foreign residents in Joso who are grappling with the language barrier and a lack of information in the aftermath of the typhoon-driven flooding that inundated a third of the city and has driven thousands from their homes.

Like Shibata, many non-Japanese in the area now lambaste the city’s handling of the disaster, saying it paid little heed to their need to be alerted to the deadly ferocity of the flood.

Joso has one of the highest concentrations of foreign residents among cities in Ibaraki Prefecture. As of the end of last year, a total of 4,263 people, or more than 6 percent of the city’s population, was non-Japanese, according to Ibaraki Prefecture. Of that, 2,041 were Brazilians, followed by 934 Filipinos, 287 Chinese and 245 Peruvians.

Mostly, they are employees of nearby food-processing factories and their families, according to Tsukuba University researcher Mariko Ikeda, who wrote a paper on the city’s Brazilians last year.

On Wednesday, water subsided in most parts of Mitsukaido, one of the hardest-hit neighborhoods of Joso — although remnants of the devastation were still visible in some areas. Roads were covered with dried mud, debris was piled high, and buildings reeked of sludge and sewage as residents busied themselves with cleanup efforts.

One resident, 34-year-old Alex Sakaue, was seen cleaning his mom-and-pop Brazilian restaurant, which he says was under 2 meters of water once the flood struck his area. The water, he said, ruined everything from kitchen appliances to furniture, making it impossible for him to resume his business in the foreseeable future.

Like Shibata, Sakaue made no secret of his anger at the city’s tardy initial response.

“The city knows there are many Brazilians living in this area and that many of us don’t understand the language well. How could they not have the decency of pre-recording emergency warnings in Portuguese to let us know where to evacuate?” said Sakaue, who himself spoke fluent Japanese.

“I’m furious,” he added.

Another Japanese-Brazilian resident, 22-year-old Guilherme Dacosta Takahashi, said emergency alerts emailed by the city were all written in Japanese, peppered with complex kanji characters that made little sense to the majority of his compatriots.

“It would’ve been better if they had translated the alerts to different languages or written them in easier-to-understand Japanese for us,” Takahashi said.

Phone calls to the city office, which itself was flooded and was reported to have lost the use of its emergency batteries, went unanswered on Wednesday and Thursday.

On its website, the city offers information in English and Portuguese on how to react in the event of a flood. It includes a list of locations people should evacuate to and offers a phone number they can call to receive updates.

A week on, many non-Japanese still appear stuck in limbo due to a lack of information from the city.

“There are a lot of questions that residents desperately want answered,” said Yoshihiro Yokota, head of Ibaraki NPO Center Commons, a local group that supports foreign residents. Yokota’s house has also been inundated, he said by phone on Tuesday.

“Many of us have been living without running water and electricity, trying to find information such as where to take debris and how to disinfect homes. The situation is more severe for foreigners, since there is no information on those things in languages other than Japanese,” he said.

Meanwhile, Escola Opcao, one of four Brazilian schools in the city with more than 100 students, escaped flood damage. It has been indefinitely closed, however, as many of its students have been rendered homeless by the disaster, said Asako Tsurui, who works as a volunteer staffer at the school.

A host of local residents and volunteers from outside the city are now spearheading relief efforts in makeshift tents in front of Mitsukaido Station. They are distributing daily necessities and clothes donated from all over Japan to all disaster victims.

One of them, 51-year-old Japanese-Brazilian Jorge Fujise, said a semblance of normalcy was beginning to take hold as basic utilities such as electricity and water had slowly been activated. His biggest concern for now, Fujise said, was the possible spread of infectious diseases among children.

“Many foreign residents are not used to life in evacuation centers, so as soon as the water subsided, they headed back to their homes — even though they are not necessarily aware of possible risks of infection,” he said.

“So you see many children playing around in a pool of dirty water, for example,” he said, noting little information comes from the city in foreign languages on how residents can sterilize buildings and avoid diseases.

On Wednesday, Shibata, the former construction worker, was helping his welder friend Alexandre Nakabayashi Moriya clean up his house, which was built only a year ago.

Moriya saw all of his brand-new belongings, including a TV, camera, laptop and other electronic devices, destroyed in the flood.

His three cars and a motorcycle, which cost about ¥4.5 million in total, were also beyond repair. Shibata’s own house had been flooded as well.

Although devastated, the two men appeared to be taking the situation in their stride.

“Okay, things got broken. That’s rough. But there is nothing we can do about that. It just means we need to work harder to get new ones,” Shibata said.

“But what hurts me more is how the city didn’t, and still doesn’t, take us seriously.

“We pay taxes just as Japanese people do. That’s unacceptable.”


Update, Sept. 18, 2015:

The story has been updated to reflect the fact that the city of Joso provides disaster-related information in foreign languages on its website.   

  • Oscar Bens

    Learn the freaking language. If you’re that indifferent towards your new home, don’t expect anyone else to care about you.

    • brwstacsj

      It takes a long time to learn a language. This flood was life endangering. The local government should have been prepared to issue warnings in other languages, especially if they have 4000 people living amongst them that speak another language. What I am wondering is why their Japanese neighbors didn’t take the time to warn them. What is that about?

      • Oscar Bens

        “The local government should have been prepared to issue warnings in other languages,” Yeah,all 6.500 of them. Cause god forbid people are actually learning the language of their new homecountry.

      • That Scottish Guy

        No-one is saying immigrants shouldn’t learn the language.
        However, Japanese is a minor language globally – with only about 1 million non-Japanese national learners. Having announcements in a a couple of major languages (e.g. Chinese and English), as well as additional languages where appropriate (i.e. Portuguese in this case due to the large number of Brazilians living there – which the local government is fully aware of) would do absolutely no harm to anyone, would be cheap to implement, and would quite possibly save lives.
        But feel free to mock and judge from atop your pedestal – don’t worry, you’re a special little flower, better than everyone else because you have pera pera Nihon-go.

      • Charlie Sommers

        You said that very well Scottish Guy, I have nothing to add.

      • Oscar Bens

        Me no understand English please speak Dutch please.

      • That Scottish Guy

        Sure! You give me 28% of your annual income and I’ll happily hire someone for 2 hours to translate 6 phrases into Dutch. I’ll even email them out to you if I think a typhoon is going to roar through. Great deal there buddy!

      • Jonathan Fields

        It wouldn’t be cheap to implement, nor would it be easy. You could have a handful of prerecorded things, but if you need more messages in a pinch, it could be difficult. I usually err on the side of foreigners, but in a case like this, I think the city was not in the wrong.

      • That Scottish Guy

        One of my web designers could knock that up in an afternoon. However, they wouldn’t need to – these systems already exist. Adding a language option (linked to your cell phone registration) is trivial.

        As for the “extra messages”, well, they come after basic messages. Let’s get a system for simple messages in place first, then we can deal with the complex stuff.

        If we can’t do even such basic things, how are we ever going to deal with the safety requirements of the Olympics or the 17 million visitors predicted for 2016?

      • Jonathan Fields

        One of your web designers could knock out a system to do PA announcements in multiple languages in an afternoon? You have quite the crack squad. What are these systems that already exist? Who is going to do the translations?

      • That Scottish Guy

        Off the top of my head, i can think of a half dozen ways to accomplish this – all pretty cheap to implement. That’s probably why I manage a 30,000 page website, and you don’t/

      • Jonathan Fields

        You can do the translations cheaply and implement a system? For PA announcements? Maybe you should be making proposals to this city instead of arguing on the internet.

      • Paul Johnny Lynn

        You are quite smug, aren’t you? You did read that most of those people can speak/read at least conversational Japanese, but found the kanji difficult didn’t you? Did anyone say ALL the world’s languages should be used? I don’t think so. Knowing that a significant number of residents are foreign, and could be better warned by a mere 2 or 3 other languages hardly seems too hard. They could probably get bi-lingual volunteers to record the messages for free.

      • blondein_tokyo

        This is fallacious reasoning. There’d be no reason to disseminate information in every language. The practical thing to do would be to consider what languages are the most common. In this particular area, it’s clear that is Portuguese and English.
        In other countries emergency information is available in several languages to ensure foreign residents are taken care of. Why should Japan be different?
        One thing I have noticed in these discussion on JT is that there is a faction of the expat population who prides themselves on speaking Japanese as though it makes them somehow more worthy, or special. Their self-esteem is boosted when they can brag of their language ability to people who aren’t as good as the language as they are. I’ve had this type of person try and “test” me to find out how well I speak Japanese, because they want to figure out where they stand in the hierarchy, so to speak. I find it both sad and silly.
        It’s silly….because everyone knows my Japanese is the best. The rest of you plebes need to go back to your country. GET OUT OF MY JAPAN! LOL… ;)

        (For those of you with no meter for sarcasm, that last part was a joke.)

      • Charles

        “One thing I have noticed in these discussion on JT is that there is a faction of the expat population who prides themselves on speaking Japanese as though it makes them somehow more worthy, or special.”

        I agree, that type really annoys me. Generally language acquisition is a function of how old you are, and how much time you have available to throw at it.

        Both of these factors basically break down to “privilege.”

        Children who grow up in a bilingual environment are privileged and should realize it. Those of us who didn’t grow up bilingual couldn’t just say “Give us Japanese-speaking parents!” and have them magically materialize.

        For the rest of the foreigners who aren’t privileged enough to have lived here at a young age, it’s about how much time they can throw at it. According to the Japan Language Education Center (JLEC), for students who do not already know an Asian language, it takes:
        …250~400 hours to learn Japanese to a basic level.
        …500~750 hours to learn Japanese to an elementary level.
        …1,400~2,000 hours to learn Japanese to an intermediate level.
        …3,100~4,500 hours to learn Japanese to an advanced level.

        In order to reach advanced Japanese, it is therefore going to take:
        1. Two years of full-time, intensive study (i.e. you have the economic privilege to do nothing but study Japanese for two whole years)
        OR
        2. Several years of part-time study. For example, study an hour a day for 10~11 years, or two hours a day for 5~6 years.

        It’s just simple mathematics.

        I suppose the person in Scenario 2, #2 has the right to be proud. I mean, it takes a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to slowly become fluent in a language while struggling in the country as an immigrant for 5, 10, etc. years.

        However, for the former two cases, my respect is very, very limited–they got there because of privilege more than anything.

        That is why the “I speak Japanese better than you” hierarchy is so fallacious. It is generally just a display of privilege, similar to “I have more money than you” or “my parents are of nobler birth than yours.”

      • blondein_tokyo

        Age, time, money, motivation. First one can’t be helped, second and third are, as you said, privelege. Last one…well, I can understand why people lose motivation. And I don’t really consider it any of my business, you know? I don’t care all that much what other people do, to be honest! :)

      • Jonathan Fields

        There you go with your privilege talk. The word “privilege” has turned into a way for us millennials to escape blame for our failings.

      • Charles

        …says the guy with an Osakan grandfather, who was economically privileged enough to attend Doshisha University, the university with a 952,000 yen price tag for the FIRST YEAR!

        Nothing but the shirt on your back, eh?

      • Minxy Minamoto

        So says the privileged young man completely blind to the privilege he lives cloaked within.

      • Jonathan Fields

        Why don’t you explain to me how privileged I am, and then I’ll tell you why you’re wrong. Go ahead.

      • Minxy Minamoto

        That does seem to be your preferred mode of interaction on JT/Disqus: You telling everyone else that they’re wrong.
        My challenge to you is to prove that you’re not privileged in any way. I dare you.

      • Jonathan Fields

        I’m not going to engage because it means nothing. If you’re going to claim that I learned Japanese because I’m “privileged” and try to invalidate my accomplishments, the burden of proof is on you.

        Privilege is one of the most misunderstood (and dangerous) sociological concepts to come along in recent years. It’s very useful as a framework for explaining differing outcomes amongst groups and for use in thought exercises. It was never intended to be used as a bludgeon against individuals or to play oppression Olympics.

        I’ve had hardships in my life you haven’t had to face and I guarantee the reverse is true. What of it?

      • Minxy Minamoto

        Nobody is saying that your stated accomplishments aren’t spectacular. The reason you’re probably on the defensive is that you’ve spotted how irritated people were by your earlier comments. What was it that irritated them so? No, it’s not that they’re jealous. Or envious, either.

        That you don’t believe you’re privileged is clear. That doesn’t mean other people believe the same.

        Perhaps you practice gratitude sometimes? It’s very effective at increasing own’s awareness of one’s privilege without negating one’s sense of achievement. Take it from from a privileged and grateful fellow gifted one. (I only wish I was as gifted and as hard-working as you!)

      • Jonathan Fields

        That wasn’t what I wanted. I didn’t want you to flatter me, nor do I want people to be envious. I don’t even care if you recognize my “accomplishments” (if you can call them that… there are more than 100,000,000 people who are better at this ‘skill’ than me).

      • Minxy Minamoto

        Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I wasn’t flattering you. You seem to be well able to do that yourself.

        You weren’t born on an island, were you? I doubt you raise yourself. You had a parent or carer, right? If you can’t acknowledge at least some of the advantages you were born into, you’re probably going to continue to sound boastful and well, privileged. A few people may just plain not believe you. Is that what you want?

      • Jonathan Fields

        I don’t care if they don’t believe me. I just want people to stop making excuses. Maybe it’s none of my business. Even a post where I tried to be nice and tell people some things I did to increase my exposure stirred up a bees nest.

        I hope you’re happy with your choices.

      • Minxy Minamoto

        JT, I feel for you. IT must be very freaking confusing. You’re just trying to help and people just don’t appreciate it.
        It seems to me that you might be gifted in some way – perhaps linguistically or another way. By not acknowledging that when you tell people that you reached JLPT’s N1 in two years and that everyone else can, too, does make it hard for people to hear you. If you were a politician, they’d say you were out of touch. Some have suggested that you’re lying. Now, I’m not.
        I read one of the books that were recommended to you earlier last night and I’m hard at work on the second one. Both of them seem to have lots of great science that I find helpful and I’m only mildly gifted. You’re clearly a hard worker who’s very gifted in a few different ways. I think you’d do well to have a crack at those books. I got mine on kindle so I can read them anywhere I take my smartphone.

    • de_leuze

      Learn to read the whole article. “Although he speaks conversational Japanese, he could not understand the loudspeaker announcement.”
      How could they not have the decency of pre-recording emergency warnings in Portuguese to let us know where to  evacuate?” said Sakaue, who himself spoke fluent Japanese.

      • Oscar Bens

        “How could they not have the decency of pre-recording emergency warnings in Portuguese to let us know where to  evacuate?” Because this is Japan and in Japan people don’t speak Portugese. Only Brazilians who don’t give a hoot about their new homecountry were affected.

      • raku

        Oscar Ben is one of those classic foreigners who thinks he’s a perfect little angel who speaks amazing Japanese and has transformed into a Japanese person. Little does he know that his new ‘home country’ does not think the same and would abandon him in an instant. He has probably become comfortable because Japanese people are usually really polite and like to make others feel comfortable. I wish he comes across a ‘no gaijin’ situation and changes his tune suddenly.

      • Charles

        If he lives here, it will happen eventually. Just give it time. :-)

        The bigger the apologist in the beginning, the harder the fall.

      • raku

        I will ignore him henceforth. He does not know to argue properly and either speaks on sarcasm or quotes yet another meaningless tirade of ‘but you no speak Japanese!’

      • Paul Johnny Lynn

        I;m not so sure he even can speak Japanese, or is here in Japan. I think he’s just a Dutch gaming nerd in need of attitude adjustment.

      • raku

        He also does not seem to know the basic technique of arguing with someone. When someone points out your blunders, you are usually expected to respond to them and not divert the argument into some other thing that caught your fancy.

        Oscar Bens, you may be equipped to deal with flood announcements in Japanese, but you are really not equipped to deal with life. Someday, you will be in a foreign country and will face issues because of the language, and you will remember your comments here. Irony will drop on you like a flood.

    • しゅうじ Shuji

      それがしエゲレス弁は、分からんゆえ漢文でお願いも申し候つかまつる!
      You know a lot about Edo era!

    • blondein_tokyo

      You aren’t considering people who are only in Japan on holiday or for business. You also aren’t considering the length of time it takes someone to learn a foreign language. You also aren’t taking into consideration the other factors concerning language acquisition, such as age, time, and motivational factors. Do you think people should die, just because they aren’t residents, are older, or aren’t very motivated to learn Japanese? I’m asking, because that is what your comment seems to imply.

      • Minxy Minamoto

        You always seem to find the heart of the matter, Blonde.

    • Minxy Minamoto

      I have a couple of rhetorical questions for you, Oscar. How long does it take to become fluent in Japanese? How long does it take to drown in a flood? Next time you’re drowning in a flood, I wonder if you will think that the most urgent thing to do at the time is to brush up on your Japanese.

      It is highly unlikely that you know the feelings any NJ-Japanese residents – other than yourself, perhaps – have towards Japan because that’s the nature of human perception. You seem to be assuming an indifference based on very little evidence.

  • styrer

    The ‘monolingual’ response thankfully didn’t extend to the important action taken by JR West, in other news here, to ban ‘annoying selfie-sticks’, although it might upset Oscar ‘learn the freaking language’ Bens a little.

    ‘JR West will publicize the ban through posters and video clips in English, Chinese, Korean and Japanese.’ Hurrah.

    • Oscar Bens

      I refuse to learn Japanese. They have to translate it in Dutch. I won’t listen to Japanese people speaking Japanese in Japan. And everybody who disagrees is racist.

      • etchasketch

        You’re just ignorant. I’d hate to meet someone like you in an evacuation shelter.

      • Charles

        He was being sarcastic.

      • etchasketch

        I thought so at first but then I read his other comments.

      • Charles

        Yeah, I agree, now that I’ve read his other posts. He seems to have an unrealistic view of how long it takes to learn Japanese.

        Oscar Bens, it takes 3,100~4,500 hours to learn Japanese to an advanced level, according to the JLEC (Japanese Language Education Center). Advanced is what you need to understand a PA announcement. Intermediate Japanese won’t cut it.

        Studying two hours a day, seven days a week, that’s 5~6 years.

        Even studying eight hours a day, five days a week, that’s close to two years.

        Do you seriously expect immigrants here to go without basic public services like disaster warnings for YEARS while waiting to become fluent in the language?

      • Oscar Bens

        I agree. Immigrants who refuse to learn the language of their new home country are ignorant.

      • Alistair Troublesome

        i have a hard time recognising written sarcasm. But that statement had plenty of sarcasm dancing in the nude >.> LOL

  • しゅうじ Shuji

    FomerPM MORI!(now Chairman of Tokyo Olympic )said.English should 2nd official Language when he was PM

  • Charles

    I think there are two schools of thought here:

    The first one:
    Japanese is a very difficult language. And it isn’t that David Kiyoshi Shibata can’t speak Japanese (the article refers to him as “conversational”), it’s that he can’t speak it FLUENTLY. I’m in the same situation–I have invested probably over 1,000 hours into learning Japanese, but am not (and likely never will be) fluent. I’ve been trying–I have JLPT N3 (which I earned just over a year after arriving here) and Kanji Kentei 4-kyuu (1,322 kanji). However, especially when it comes to listening comprehension, I seriously doubt I’ll ever be completely fluent. Believe me, I want to be, but I know by now that it’s just not realistic. I have met only two non-Japanese since coming here who rose beyond the “intermediate” plateau–both had been here for 20+ years.

    Very, very few foreigners in Japan can understand Japanese broadcasts perfectly unless they were born and raised here. It’s unreasonable to expect all foreigners to reach a fluent level of Japanese overnight.

    HOWEVER, the second school of thought is this:

    David Kiyoshi Shibata is an ethnic Japanese from South America. They have been granted SPECIAL VISAS and PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT because of their “Japaneseness.” While most immigrants here struggle along on limited one- or three-year visas, many of these ethnic Japanese from South America arrive in Japan with a five-year visa, called a teijuusha visa (定住者). This visa is not tied to work, so they can study, work, or just take a break as they please. And permanent residency? They can get it after just five years, much more easily than other foreigners (who have to wait 10 years if on a regular working visa).

    The Japanese government probably specially gave him a better visa because of his Japaneseness, and now suddenly he wants things translated into Portuguese?

    • Guilherme Santana

      Although the last part of your commentary does make a kind of sense, would you honestly turn down a better visa just because your Japanese isn’t that good? “Nah, I’m good, just give me the one-year visa, my japanese sucks”
      You wouldn’t, much as I wouldn’t. Can’t blame the guy for what he was given.

      • Charles

        You’re right that I wouldn’t turn down the better visa. I’d gladly take a “heritage” visa from Germany or Norway (if such visas existed, which they don’t) even though my German and Norwegian are non-existent. It’s the fault of the government for giving these visas out like candy, not the immigrants. It’s an idiotic visa policy to give out better visas based on bloodline, instead of more measurable things like language proficiency and education.

        However, he has less of a leg to stand if his Japanese sucks. The assumption when this visa scheme was made was that these South American “Japanese” would have superior knowledge of J-language/culture, which he obviously does not. If I somehow get myself a “heritage visa” for Germany or Norway, cutting in the immigration line so to speak, then I had better darn well learn German or Norwegian. It’s a courtesy to the other immigrants as much as it is a courtesy to the host country.

      • Guilherme Santana

        I agree entirely. At the very least, it feels like a terrible idea to not master the language of the country you’re moving to, worst case scenario being the one written in the article. His complaints are not unfounded, though; if the government knows there’s a sizable population of portuguese speakers there, it’d make sense to have warnings in portuguese – even the terribly inefficient brazillian government, which I know first-hand, would probably do it.

        As for the Nikkei visas, I think it pretty much boils down to “he’s japanese, we’re japanese, let him in” at this point, which seems to fit in the big picture of japanese society.

    • Mieko

      You’re an idiot to slam everybody else cause you can never see yourself mastering Japanese.. Before going to Japan in 1986 i studied for 2 years
      and went to Tokyo Kokusai Gakuen for a year before entering Sophia University. I’ll tell ya..back then there was next to no gaijin around and immersion makes one a very eager to get the language down. I think all gaijin these days think they should be granted some special privilege being there..oh i need this in English, Tagalog, Portugues or whatever friggin language.. You’re in one of the most xenophobic countries in the world, be grateful you’re even there. The one true fact about Japan is if you want any amount of success being a gaijin in japan..You better know the language pretty damned good. And FYI i wasn’t born with a silver spoon up my ass.. i worked pretty damned hard and was motivated.

      • Charles

        First of all, I guess I was a little bit presumptuous about Jonathan’s financial background. I realize that there are ways, even for economically less-privileged people, to afford a year or two at language school.

        If Jonathan Fields had simply said “it is possible to become fluent in Japanese in two years” instead of bashing me and people who can’t, I would have been fine with that. But he had to bash people who can’t, which is why I got aggressive. Check this out, his initial post:
        “I became conversational in 1 year, passed the JLPT1 in 2 years, and I could understand announcements over the PA around the same time. Japanese is not a difficult language. If you’ve been here for more than a year, you shouldn’t need bilingual announcements. Period.”

        It’s so condescending. And the statement of “Japanese is not a difficult language” just makes it seem like he’s showing off. If Japanese isn’t a difficult language, then what is, exactly?

        No need to call me an “idiot.” I _do_ speak Japanese, just not fluently like you and Jonathan apparently do. As I have stated before, I’m N3/KanKen 4-kyuu. If you want to call someone an idiot, go find one of those guys who is married to a J-woman, has been here for ten years, and still can’t have a conversation.

        “You’re an idiot to slam everybody else cause you can never see yourself mastering Japanese.”

        I’m just being realistic. I studied Korean intensively for two academic years spaced over three years in Korea using money that I earned while working at 7-Eleven, Domino’s pizza, etc. in the States for two years before I left at age 19. I taught English to supplement those savings. I finally graduated from the language program of a university there, and the result was “advanced,” with a KLPT test score of 405/500 (the Korean equivalent of JLPT N2–i.e. second level from the top). I put “advanced” in quotes because I don’t think my level was really advanced, it was just intermediate-high at best, and the only reason my test score said “advanced” and that my university called me “advanced” was because of low standards/expectations for foreigners in Korea. My results were very similar to other people who attended the program, in fact my speaking and writing were actually much better. I have met many, many people face-to-face studying difficult East Asian languages, and have almost never seen someone truly fluent after just two years of study, including at an intensive language program.

        I would love to attend language school in Japan, but unfortunately blew all my money on a Korean language school and have no desire to blow all my money again just to get Japanese that’s marginally higher than my intermediate Japanese now.

        If someone can get 1-kyuu on the JLPT after two years of intensive study in Japan, that is wonderful for that person, but should not be expected for everybody. And you and Jonathan Fields are missing the point–not everyone here can afford language school and studying the language intensively for two years. Some of us have to hit the ground running and work at an eikaiwa, a factory, etc. on arrival. A student visa requires a bank balance of 2,000,000 yen, in addition to the amount of money that is required to pay for tuition (600,000 yen per year) and living expenses. In other words, good luck on studying Japanese here intensively unless you have at least 3 million yen in the bank. For those of us who cannot study Japanese full-time and instead must work in non-Japanese-using jobs, our time to study Japanese is severely reduced.

        Maybe you had 40 hours per week to devote to Japanese. Some of us only have 10, or 5. And when that’s the case, progress will naturally be 4~8 times slower. What you or Jonathan Fields did in two years of intensive study, might take a full time eikaiwa worker like me eight years. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

        Basically:
        – Yes, it’s possible for some people with high language aptitude and motivation to reach fluency after two years if most of the right conditions are met.
        – NO, it’s not possible for everyone to do it in two years, and NO, it is not okay to talk smack to people who have been here for 3+ years and still don’t have JLPT N1.

      • Jonathan Fields

        In the time you’ve spent making excuses for not knowing Japanese on this English news site, you probably could have watched a movie in Japanese or studied about 10 Kanji.

      • Charles

        Here, I fixed it for you:
        “In the time you’ve spent bragging about your Japanese and berating others whom you perceive to have lesser Japanese than yours on
        this English news site, you probably could have watched a movie in
        Japanese or studied about 10 Kanji.”

      • Jonathan Fields

        I’m pretty sure I’ve said “anyone can do it” in multiple places. And I’m not the one talking about how hard Japanese is and then not studying it.

      • Charles

        Yeah, I’ll concede that I’ve spent far too much time arguing with you about this. In the time it has taken me to type out all these replies (probably thousands of words), I probably could have crammed ~100 new words using Anki, or more than 3% of the JLPT N1 corpus. Yes, this “discussion” has been a colossal waste of time. I really should learn better time management and find some way to conquer my Internet addiction.

        Your claim that everyone should understand PA announcements after a year is still ridiculous, you show no compassion for those less privileged for yourself, and you lie to the extent that I seriously wonder if you’ve actually lived in Japan. However, it would have been more in my self-interest to spend several hours on Anki cramming than it would have been for me to try to combat all the falsehoods on the Internet. I should have just ignored you. Point taken. I’m a flawed human being (among billions of flawed human beings).

      • Jonathan Fields

        Ok. I’m done too. Clearly no one gets it. You don’t have to “cram anki” or “conquer internet addiction.” Those are much loftier goals than understanding a PA announcement. Just increase your exposure as much as possible. That’s it. I’ve said it many times. I didn’t carve out a lot of time for study, but I was doing my normal routine in Japanese as much as possible. I just immersed myself in the country I’m living in. I even tried to offer some suggestions on how others could do that and Blonde jumped down my throat for “telling people how to live their lives” and told me I’m not allowed to “tell people how to use their time.” You’re all ridiculous.

      • Charles

        If we’re “all ridiculous,” why are you wasting so much of your time with us?

        I’ve already admitted that I have an Internet addiction. That’s why I waste time with you.

        You talk repeatedly about your amazing levels of self-control; about how for two years, you constantly made every effort to immerse yourself, denying any temptation to revert to English things. About how you budgeted so tightly that you were able to live on ~$666.67 per month. These are all acts of a guy with amazing self-control.

        So with all this self-control, why do you waste so much time defending your views to “ridiculous” people who will never learn?

      • Jonathan Fields

        Because I enjoy it? I’m not always the most friendly, but I think arguing is important for people. I will apologize for calling you ridiculous.

      • Charles

        By the way, I can’t help but wonder…
        Your comments on Japan are frequently not very positive. Not that there’s anything wrong with that–everyone has the right to complain, and there’s plenty to criticize here from Abe to the handling of Fukushima to xenophobia. Having read your comments, you don’t seem very happy or well-adjusted here (not that it’s your own fault–I often feel the same way).

        Do you ever regret having thrown away ~4,000 hours of your life becoming totally fluent in a language of a country that you now don’t even like that much?

        Don’t you ever wonder to yourself “Hmmm, I wonder if maybe I should have gotten to know the country first?”

        Learning a difficult language (like Japanese is) to fluency is kind of like marriage–a very big commitment financially and time-wise.

        What you did was essentially like going to a bar, having a one-night stand with a hot girl, then marrying her the next day.

        Do you ever wonder if maybe, just maybe, that wasn’t the right way to go about things?

        You see, I may have only spent 1,000~2,000 hours studying Japanese, but I have spent my free time here studying _other_ things. I’ve finished an IT degree while here, two Career Studies Certificates in Business IT and Application Programming, and am on my 4th-to-last course for my BS in Computer & Information Science.

        If I were to leave Japan tomorrow, those things would be very useful. I could probably get a job as a programmer.

        You didn’t study or work harder than me–you just studied _Japanese_ more than me. If you were to decide “I’m tired of this place” and leave tomorrow, what would your Japanese get you? Well, I can answer that: MAYBE a job using Japanese (if a Japanese-American didn’t beat you to it). And then you’d spend all day doing business with–you guessed it–Japan! The country you didn’t even like, and left!

        Would you advocate that all foreigners in Japan do the same you did, dumping 4,000 hours into learning the language before they can even make a mature, informed decision about whether they like the _country_ or not?

      • Jonathan Fields

        First of all, I like Japan a lot. That’s why I want to fix it. I’ll concede that I’m often too negative, but that’s unrelated to this discussion.

        I got a masters and am halfway through a doctorate. If I did decide to leave, I could derive quite a bit of benefit from all of my hard work. But I’m glad you’ve found another excuse that allows you to be comfortable with your decisions.

      • Mieko

        You have a point.. I studied for 2 years before going to Japan and found that textbook Japanese and real day to day Japanese are two different things. Back in the 80’s there weren’t too many services for Gaijin but speaking for myself i found being totally immersed made learning rather exciting and worked well for me. The JLPT is overrated.. I had to do 1 Kyuu before entering Sophia University but i found although challenging it wasn’t some giant wall that couldn’t be gotten over. Admittedly i just squeaked by in passing it but it was enough for the University requirements. It’s better to get the day to day conversational Japanese down and know your 2,000 or so kanji/compounds down so you can function.. Maybe not enough to read Nihon Keizai Shunbun but certainly enough to read and understand natural disaster warnings !! If one is there for years and not have and grow linguistically is just kinda stupid. My whole point when it comes to this article is that unlike many Western and European countries where there’s some flexibility in languages, going to Japan and not knowing the language to a point where your literal survival depends on it is just crazy.

      • Charles

        “If one is there for years and not have and grow linguistically is just kinda stupid.”

        Well, not necessarily. Some people make a rational decision that another pursuit in their lives is more important than becoming fluent in Japanese.

        In my case, I realized that I could increase my pay more by studying other, non-Japanese subjects, than by becoming fluent in Japanese. That’s how capitalism works. In capitalism, people study the subjects that’ll get them more money.

        Here’s my story:

        1. I came to Japan in 2011. For the first year, in addition to working full-time as an eikaiwa teacher and a part-time Korean-English translator, I worked really hard to learn Japanese. I passed Kanji Kentei 5-kyuu (1,006 kanji) after about 10 months in Japan. I passed JLPT N3 after just over a year in Japan. Not bad progress–probably comparable to you and JT.

        2. However, from 2012 to 2013, I lost motivation. Why? Well, the biggest factor was seeing lots of foreigners with no Japanese skills being treated well (better than me, in terms of visas, salaries, etc.). Meanwhile, I saw many foreigners with N2 or above, and you know what they were doing? Yep, that’s right–teaching English for the same salary as me. I knew one guy in his 50s, who’d been here for over 20 years, with firm N2-level Japanese, and he replaced me at the job that I’d had when I was 24!

        3. Then I realized “Wow, knowing Japanese doesn’t really get you very far in this country.” So I started to become a little bit less fanatical about Japanese. I still studied it from time-to-time, but put my focus on IT and computer programming instead. Because IT jobs for gaijin have a median salary of 3.55 million yen per year–about 0.55 million yen higher per year than English teaching–and much more room for growth (some pay 5+ million yen per year) and prestige. An English teacher can only save about 1 million yen per year after living expenses, but an average computer programmer can save about 1.5 million yen per year–50% more!

        4. Since I made this decision, I have completed 10 college courses towards my IT degree (now finished) and my BS in Computer & Information Science (will probably be finished next year). I have also self-studied for two DSST exams and passed both with flying colors. And I have added some significant programs to my programming portfolio. This has taken literally thousands of hours on top of my full-time job, so it’s not like I’m lazy–I’m just mainly studying computers, not Japanese. I am now only four courses away from the BS in Computer & Information Science.

        5. Now, I haven’t abandoned Japanese completely. I continue to use it in my everyday life (important since I live out in the countryside of Fukushima–almost no English services available). I continue to do my Anki reps. I have gradually added on kanji. Now I’m up over 1,300. When I play an RPG game, I try to get the Japanese version because it gives me reading practice. I generally insist on speaking Japanese unless I’m at my eikaiwa school–it annoys me when people try to get free English lessons from me, and I want my Japanese to improve.

        6. Eventually, I’m going to pass N2 (almost there, just failed it by one point last time) and finish my BS in Computer & Information Science. When that happens, I’ll be qualified for a programming job, median salary 3.55 million yen.

        7. Guys who focus on JLPT N1 to the exclusion of all else will continue to make 3 million yen per year, mostly as ALTs or eikaiwa teachers. Why? Because bilinguals are plentiful. Guys who’ve been here for 10 or 20 years with a Japanese wife are a dime a dozen.

        Guys with _job skills_, especially in STEM like specialized programming/IT skills (C++, Java, Shell, SQL, web development technologies like PHP/MySQL/HTML/ActionScript 3.0, networking, etc.) _and_ English _and_ half-decent Japanese (doesn’t have to be fluent, N2 is good enough according to many job ads) have much better prospects than guys who don’t have those skills and speak fluent Japanese.

        So that, right there, is why I stopped being fanatical about studying Japanese. I analyzed probably hundreds of jobs ads for IT/programming jobs and made a rational decision–that although being able to communicate in Japanese is important, it’s not _as_ important as job skills. So I focus on building the latter more than the former.

      • Mieko

        Unfortunately your reply seems to have gone missing. So i’ll reply accordingly. I certainly understand your process especially in light of today’s “Gaijin” Market. I left Japan in 91′ (Still next to no Gaijin around at that point) and yeah.. these days bilingual Gaijin are a dime a dozen so moving to IT made sense.. Ironically after working as a translator for a number of years i moved to IT. And I’m a OCP,MSCE,CCNP and now moving into database/front/backend design (Java,Nodejs,Angular,ASP,Python,SQL, PL/SQL, Ruby, RoR) and yeah if i went back to Japan with those skills with decent language skills i’d be paid more for my IT skills than language.
        It all still comes back to the fact that in Japan you need to adapt to be able to flourish there.

      • Hanten

        LOL, Meiko. You’re getting used to abusing people online and getting away with it. That’s not healthy. Of your dozen or so comments on Disqus, the overwhelming majority have included an abusive comment.

      • Minxy Minamoto

        I don’t think Charles slammed anybody. He did do his best to get JF to check himself as have I.

        It is very difficult for people born into privilege to admit to it. They can’t even see it, often enough. If they do, they might then feel that their efforts to succeed are invalidated. Even if it was only a little invalidated, it’d hurt, right? Also, if they want other people to try their best, work hard, gambatte kudasai, admitting their privilege would totally work against that message. Moreover, if people of privilege (who should be called POPs from now) were blisteringly honest about the reasons for their position in the world, then they might find themselves empathizing with the unluckier mob. After that, there would be a risk that they’d become socialists. Not that there’s anything wrong with that but think of how shocked everyone would be.

        It took me years of self-reflection to realize how lucky I am and then a few more to understand that that is what others were calling privilege. If I was JF, I wouldn’t be ready to cop to it on a JT comment thread. I’d give him a minute.

      • ChbiM

        Japan needs foreign workers; there’s no doubt about that. it’s not a “privilege” for them to be here – it is quid-pro-quo; they give Japan what it wants, and they get paid. They don’t need to be grateful for being here. They do, however, need not to have their lives at risk. What if there had been Brazilian children there, just arrived, who had no language ability? What if a wife had just arrived that week to join her husband and had had no opportunity to study?

        If there is a sizeable population of foreign people, some of whom have just arrived, they need to be safeguarded. But somehow I don’t think that safety is a priority for anyone, or the flooding wouldn’t have happened in the first place. Those river systems are notorious for flooding, and a few days’ heavy rain shouldn’t be causing disaster in this day and age. I think the whole situation looks like bureaucratic and structural sloppiness, to be honest.

      • Mieko

        Yes Japan needs workers, however the onus is on the person who is coming to a completely alien culture/language to be prepared to live there. Everybody is complaining against the local government (incompetent or not) about not informing a tiny minority about this or that.. What about their own group (brazillian, Filipino..whatever)keeping each other informed.. In this day of Social networking there were nobody who could keep each other informed has to important things like floods ?

  • Clayton Forrester

    I sympathize totally with not understanding the loudspeaker announcements. Those are really hard to understand, in my humble opinion.

    • Charles

      Yeah. I agree. Listening comprehension is the hardest part of Japanese.

      Listening comprehension is very difficult to study, especially because
      it is so difficult to measure and “you can’t manage what you can’t
      measure.” I have only met two foreigners in my 4 1/2 years here who could demonstrate to me
      fluent listening comprehension. One was a Brazilian lady who had been
      living in Japan for 20+ years. One was a Lutheran pastor from Finland
      who had also been here for 20+ years.

      Some people say kanji are the hardest part, but they’re wrong. You can acquire a 12-year-old’s knowledge of kanji after less than a year in the country if you study ~3 per day with a decent SRS (Spaced Repetition System) such as Anki. There’re only ~2,000 kanji necessary for total literacy, which can be accomplished in just two years if you’re reasonably diligent. That’s a joke compared to the 60,000~100,000 words a native speaker of any given language knows.

      • Jonathan Fields

        I became conversational in 1 year, passed the JLPT1 in 2 years, and I could understand announcements over the PA around the same time. Japanese is not a difficult language. If you’ve been here for more than a year, you shouldn’t need bilingual announcements. Period.

      • Charles

        Your story, if true, is exceptional, and cannot be expected for most people.

        I have lived in Japan for 4 1/2 years. I don’t know a single foreigner who has passed JLPT N1 with only two years of study, except for Koreans (who have a special linguistic advantage because Korean and Japanese are so similar).

        If you really have passed N1 with only one year of study, then either:
        A) You’re a linguistic genius (mentally privileged).
        or
        B) You’re privileged in some other way. Maybe your parents had lots of money to send you to an intensive language school in Japan. Or maybe you already speak a language very similar to Japanese (one in the Ural-Altaic group). Or maybe you were lucky enough to go to a high school with a Japanese program, instead of being stuck studying Spanish or French.

        Either way, you’re privileged and should understand that not everyone is as privileged as you.

        Even for hard-working foreigners living in Japan, JLPT N1 after two years, heck, even JLPT N2, is a stretch, unless they are going to language school full-time (which costs a lot of money that most of us can’t afford).

      • Jonathan Fields

        Nope. No privilege. Just will. I changed my cell phone, my computer, and everything to Japanese. I asked a Chinese friend to teach me Kanji the Chinese way. I stopped watching movies and TV in English. I did Anki on the train. The only English indulgence I allowed myself at the time was football (gridiron, not association). Learning language is a skill that’s built into every human brain. Anyone can do what I did if they’re willing to.

      • Charles

        “Nope. No privilege. Just will.”

        Right, no privilege, just will.

        Oh, and this little thing called “Doshisha University,” an elite university that costs 952,000 yen for the first year alone. Tell me, how did you pay for that?

      • Jonathan Fields

        It’s extremely disturbing that you dug around for that information, but it’s only part true. The Japanese grandfather part is a lie. It’s part of a little social experiment I’ve been doing to see how Japanese people treat me if they think I have some Japanese blood (hint: much better). Jonathan Fields isn’t even my real name (shock!).

        I did attend Doshisha University. I chose to go to school in Japan because it’s a very good school and far cheaper than anywhere I could go in the States. I paid for it myself by doing business English lessons and working eikaiwa jobs. There goes your privilege.

        If someone has something you don’t, you immediately assume it was given to them. Grow up.

      • Charles

        I wouldn’t have dug around for information or made this personal if you hadn’t berated people who can’t speak Japanese fluently after a year or two, including me. Okay, maybe you really did master Japanese to a fluent level after two years of blood, sweat, and tears. Great for you. But that doesn’t mean that everyone should be expected to do it, especially people whose jobs require them to speak in a foreign language for 40~50 hours per week.

      • Jonathan Fields

        I had the same and I found a way. See my other post for some tips on “studying” without using a lot of time. For my first two years in Japan, I worked and saved up for school. I passed the JLPT, took my Doshisha entrance exam, and found work in Kyoto after I was accepted.

      • blondein_tokyo

        Tell me…how did you get a job teaching business English without a MA in TESOL or Linguistics? Because as far as I know, there’s no undergraduate degree that makes you anywhere near qualified to teach English. Even to get DELTA, which would make you minimally qualified, needs a first degree in a related field AND teaching experience.

        My guess is that you’re like the vast majority of English teachers in Japan- you came here with no teaching experience and no TESOL qualification, and got the job simply because you had a first degree and you’re from an English speaking country.

        Being able to get a job that pays roughly 3,500-4,000 yen an hour without experience or a qualification is the very essence of privilege.

        Looking down on factory workers who didn’t come from an English speaking country and therefore had no choice but to be factory workers, and then refusing to admit your privilege or even admit you’re being unfair is extremely petty.

        I think you’re the one who needs to grow up.

      • Charles

        “The Japanese grandfather part is a lie. It’s part of a little social
        experiment I’ve been doing to see how Japanese people treat me if they
        think I have some Japanese blood (hint: much better).”

        Well, honestly, if you admit to lying about having/not having a Japanese grandfather, why should we trust anything you say?

        I mean, I can certainly understand you lying about having a Japanese grandfather to escape racism and xenophobia. I haven’t done it myself, but my grandmother did start hiding her half Jewish heritage after the Holocaust, so I acknowledge that sometimes, things like this are necessary to be treated acceptably in a society (though her case was probably a little bit more extreme than yours). I also suspect that many Japanese have foreign ancestors and cover it up (just look at all the beautiful half-Caucasian women in Akita who claim they’re pure-blooded Japanese who just “ate the right diet”).

        But when you get caught in the act of lying, you’ve got to understand that it will decrease your credibility.

      • Hanten

        Perception of privilege seems to be hardest for the most privileged and those least challenged by the world around them. One example of this mechanism is the average white middle-to-upper class male living in a Western country.

        http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/minds-business/dissecting-white-male-privilege-at-work.html

        Despite their best intentions the intellectual gifted similarly can come off as flippant, condescending or plain arrogant in their regard for those not gifted as the gifted tend to only view the world through their gifted lens. Unfortunately, for them they commonly and inadvertently isolate themselves from the less blessed citing “boredom”, “anger” or in the most self-aware “a lack patience” for bulk of the bell curve.

        I recommend reading a couple of books which I have found pertinent to the situation:

        http://www.heidigranthalvorson.com/books/no-one-understands-you-and-what-to-do-about-it

        http://danariely.com/tag/predictably-irrational/

        Being the quick study that you are, you will have no trouble reading those in short order.

        I wish you all the luck in the world.

      • Minxy Minamoto

        I would’ve thought for sure that Jonathan Fields would’ve replied to you by now. Maybe he is off reading those links.

        The gifted coming off as arrogant and without any empathy is a problem, isn’t it? What can they do about it? I know a couple of those so-called geniuses. They regularly alienate their those around them just by trying to teach them things they don’t want to know. Mainly because of the manner in which they do it.

      • Hanten

        I reckon he’s still fast asleep…zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

      • Minxy Minamoto

        The young and gifted need a lot of that. All that brain work is tiring.

      • blondein_tokyo

        Language acquisition theory is a lot more complicated than that. There are many affective factors, as well as factors such as age. Read up on it; it’s actually rather fascinating.

        And what if people’s purpose for study is different from yours? What if they have no need to become fluent? What if they have no interest to become fluent? What if they make a conscious choice that their Japanese is “good enough” for their purpose?

        Are you going to argue that they’re doing it wrong?

        And are you going to argue that this choice to do it wrong makes them deserving of death?

        Because that’s basically what your protestations here boil down to- that the city shouldn’t bother to cater to non-Japanese speaking people because if they can’t speak Japanese, it’s their own fault if they’re killed in a disaster.

        That view is utterly lacking in humanity. If that’s your belief, then I question your moral compass.

        You can make an argument that people should make at least some effort to learn the language of the country they live in without arguing that they deserve death if they don’t.

      • Jonathan Fields

        This has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I’ve ever seen on JT. And that’s saying something. Go back and read my posts and then ask yourself if addressed them honestly or if you just constructed a really hateful strawman.

        I will not concede, Blonde. I made about $19,000 after taxes and fees my first year in Japan working at an eikaiwa and doing dispatch lessons to various businesses. I saved almost $11,000. Do you know how much belt tightening that took? I’ll give you that working in a factory is much more draining than dancing with little kids in a suit which you can barely afford to have cleaned, but if you think that Brazilians who come here and work in factories are somehow less capable of learning the language, then I question your humanity. That’s the subtle racism of lowered expectations.

        I’m not talking about sitting and busting your buns for 3 hours a day. I’m talking about increasing your exposure wherever possible and immersing yourself in the culture. Anyone can do it. If you want to keep getting angry about my “privilege,” that’s fine, but know that there is something wrong with your work ethic. I’m sticking to my guns: if you live in a foreign country, you should learn the language. If you can’t pass JLPT1 (which truly doesn’t even represent a very high standard for speaking as most elementary school kids will wipe the floor with you), you’re doing something wrong.

      • blondein_tokyo

        I called you out for denying your privilege. Your privilege is that you could sail into Japan and get a job that pays 3,500-4,000/hr (business lessons) or 2,000-2,500/hr (eikaiwa) without either experience or a degree. That’s a privilege even beyond what newly graduated Japanese have.

        Meanwhile foreign-born line workers in a factory make 800-1,200/hr and work multiple shifts including night shifts. They struggle to eat, meanwhile sending money back home to their family. Saving money is an impossibility; getting a graduate degree is so out of reach that they can’t even dream.

        Privilege doesn’t mean you didn’t work hard. Privilege means you started at a point way above someone else and worked hard to get even further above them.

        I also didn’t say people are incapable of learning. I said there are a lot of factors regarding a petson’s capacity to learn a language and speak it fluently (which is what JLPT 1 represents; that’s not the same as being a native speaker which is further beyond that level) many of which are affective. As a professional language teacher, you surely have read Krashen and Vygotsky? If not, do so.

        I also said that not everyone has the time, desire, or need to become fluent. That has nothing to do with ability.

        Your accusation of a straw man falls flat and is rather ironic considering that it’s you who is misrepresenting my arguments.

        PS
        Edited to include this.

        You have every right to your opinion that people are “doing it wrong” by making an active choice not to learn Japanese past a certain point. But if you think that “doing it wrong” means people deserve to die; if you think the city they live in shouldn’t make slight adjustments to help them stay safe in a disaster, then yes- you lack empathy and I question your moral compass.

        Nothing is wrong with my work ethic. I’m not the one teaching English without the proper degree or any idea of the general principals of language acquisition theory.

        That’s a burn, son. Better get out of the fire.

      • Jonathan Fields

        Ok, so let’s assume I started at a point above someone else and worked hard to get even further above them. How does that absolve them, or you or Charles or any of the others who were offended by my opinion for that matter, of their responsibility to fit in in their adopted country. This privilege argument has nothing to do with the original discussion and your argument is absolutely a straw man. I never said the city shouldn’t do anything and I never said anyone deserves to be in danger. They should have been able to understand the announcements. That they didn’t is their fault. It doesn’t follow that the city shouldn’t do anything, nor does that mean I think they deserved to be in danger. There’s a lot of grey area between what you’re reducing my argument to and what you’re arguing.

        The idea that someone who comes from a poorer nation and works a difficult job should be absolved of all responsibility to assimilate to the country they’re in is extremely condescending. I’m not saying they should be forced to pass the JLPT1 or even be held to the same standard as someone who is enrolled in a Japanese graduate school. I’m just saying they have a responsibility, and the ability, to learn the language just like everyone else.

        I will not recognize my “privilege” because it’s meaningless in the context of this argument. You’re abusing or misunderstanding that particular sociological concept.

      • Charles

        “How does that absolve them, or you or Charles or any of the others who
        were offended by my opinion for that matter, of their responsibility to
        fit in in their adopted country.”

        This “responsibility” exists only in your head.

        Of course foreigners have some responsibility to learn the basics of the language, but you’re advocating going for fluency in one or two years.

        Japanese people generally don’t care that much if we learn their language well or not. Did you know that?

        Whether you are a beginner or fluent in Japanese, you’re still going to get the same visas, the same “Nihongo ga jouzu desu!” the same peope replying to you in English even when you speak to them in Japanese, etc. I think that deep down inside, many Japanese people, especially those who can speak some English, prefer if we didn’t learn it, because they seem to want to practice their English so much. I’ve also noticed, anecdotally, that most of the people who “lived in Japan for a year and loved it!” were often the same people who didn’t speak a lick of the language–ignorance is bliss. If Japanese really cared that much about us learning to speak fluent Japanese, then they’d give better visas/salaries to people who can. But they don’t. Just look at Caroline Kennedy–appointed as AMBASSADOR to Japan–but couldn’t hold a Japanese conversation. What message does that send you?

        I’m planning to enter IT next year, when I have passed JLPT N2 and have my BS in Computer & Information Science. The median salary for a (generally N2-or-higher) foreigner in that sector is 3.55 million yen. That’s only 0.55 million yen higher than what a fresh-off-the-plane eikaiwa monkey with no Japanese and no skills makes. What message does that send you?

        “I’m just saying they have a responsibility, and the ability, to learn the language just like everyone else.”

        Actually, no, that’s not what you said, because if you’d said something so reasonable and moderate from the beginning, we wouldn’t be arguing with you now. You said that people should be able to understand PA announcements after one year. Understanding PA announcements reliably requires being more or less fluent.

        I can speak Japanese, and blondein_tokyo probably can, too. In my experience living in three different cities, most foreigners who live here learn at least conversational Japanese for the simple reason that most Japanese don’t speak English, and that studying _some_ Japanese can be fun and rewarding.

        But your initial post took it to an extreme–that they should learn Japanese fluently enough to understand PA announcements in ONE OR TWO YEARS (i.e. before the honeymoon phase of culture shock has even worn off, for some people), and if they can’t, that’s THEIR PROBLEM.

      • Jonathan Fields

        Maybe you get “日本語お上手ですね,” but I get “全然違和感がないですね” and “発音がネイティヴ並みに綺麗ですね”

        Clearly this conversation has stirred up a lot of strong feelings in you guys. You should learn the language where you live. The fact that you think it’s ok not to because you don’t have to to get by says a lot about you.

      • Charles

        “You should learn the language where you live. The fact that you think
        it’s ok not to because you don’t have to to get by says a lot about you.”

        Doesn’t apply to us, because we speak Japanese. As most gaijin in Japan outside of Tokyo or the major cities do. But you keep forgetting, no matter how many times we tell you. I’m not quite sure how you learned the 60,000~100,000 Japanese words necessary to be “like a native,” let alone the ~10,000 words necessary to be fluent, with such a poor memory.

      • blondein_tokyo

        No one is arguing that people should be “absolved from their responsibility to fit in with their adopted country.” We are arguing that not everyone can or needs to learn the language of the country they are living in to the degree that you are advocating for. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you did state that you think JLPT 1 is not good enough, and “elementary school kids will wipe the floor with you.” This implies that you think people should be as, or nearly as, fluent as a native speaker. If you were a professional teacher who had studied language acquisition theory to any extent at all (Krashen and Vygotsky are considered just basic knowledge; there is a lot more to it than what they alone wrote) you’d know that is an extremely high standard, nearly an impossible one, to hold people to. In short, you are completely in the wrong on this, and there are years of research that back me up on this that you can even check out for yourself.

        If you were to come down a few notches and say everyone should learn enough Japanese to get by, we would not be having this discussion because I would be in general agreement with you.

        However, you started out arguing for a level that very few people can (or need to, or want to) attain, and berating people for not being able to attain it. That is what drew my eye to this discussion.

        That you are making this argument in this particular context really does seem to imply that you believe it is these people’s own fault if they miss out on information that is important to their welfare. If this was not your intention, then may I ask what IS your intention in posting in this thread? Are you in the habit of berating other foreigners on their lack of language skills on such a regular basis that you felt the comment section on this story was just another appropriate venue for it?

        In other words, if you don’t believe these people were in some way responsible for their plight, then why would you think that this forum is the right venue for these comments?

        Another thing to think about: did you even consider the feelings of the people in this story, the effect your comments might have on them if they stumbled over them while reading this story about themselves?

        I doubt you even imagined that possibility. I think you’re one of those gaijin who gets off on the feelings of superiority he gets from being fluent in Japanese, and takes every opportunity he can to throw that in the faces of people who are less fluent.

        The assumption you voiced in the comment above this one (that I don’t any other languages) supports my theory quite well: you thought that by pointing that out, you’d one up me somehow.

        Well, you didn’t one up me at all.

        Last thing. Privilege is important here because of those aforementioned affective factors. To put it simply, people who are underprivileged do not have the time, energy, or money to throw at language study, and that impedes their ability to become fluent. You have no idea how long those people have been in Japan, and you don’t know what other factors in their lives might be contributing to their lack of language skills, and you don’t understand how languages are acquired – yet you think you have the right to judge these people and call them out. As they say, that really takes the cake.

      • Jonathan Fields

        I do know how language skills are acquired. I went out and did it.

        Language is like any other activity. Do it enough and you’ll get good at it. I didn’t carve out much special study time during my days. I just tried to fit Japanese into my life anywhere and everywhere I could. Then I lived.

        I’m going to say that you don’t understand language acquisition.

      • blondein_tokyo

        That’s your entire argument? That you know more about language acquisition than all the linguists that have been doing research in the field since the grammar translation method was invented back in the 1880’s? You know more than all the researchers who have published works on the subject? You, the guy who came to Japan to teach without even the minimum qualification?

        Really?

        I am definitely wasting my time here, because if you really believe this, then you are so entrenched in your beliefs that nothing, no amount of evidence, is going to budge them. You remind me of people like Ken Ham, the guy who had a debate with Bill Nye and whose entire argument against evolution is, “Were you there?” The anti-intellecualsim in that just astounds me.

      • Jonathan Fields

        When did I ever say that? Lol. You’re an expert in linguistics, jumping to conclusions, and running around in circles.

        This is more like someone telling Ina Garten that she’s not qualified to have a cooking show because she never went to culinary school.

      • blondein_tokyo

        You just said that, right up there, when you said you know how languages are acquired because you acquired one.

        It’s more like saying that because you have cooked a few meals, that means you’re a professional, qualified chef.

        Yeah, done here.

      • Jonathan Fields

        So saying “I know how languages are acquired because I acquired one m” is now the same as saying “I know more than the experts on linguistics.” Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension and then tackle Japanese.

      • Jonathan Fields

        Congrats on your degree and your extensive knowledge of language acquisition theory. If I run into some Japanese people looking for a highly qualified language teacher who can’t even bother to learn a language herself, I’ll send them your way.

      • blondein_tokyo

        Actually? I speak Japanese quite well. I also speak Spanish.

        So there goes THAT theory.

      • Charles

        If you were making $19,000 a year, I highly doubt you were employed full-time. Try working a FULL-TIME job and studying Japanese 36 or 37 hours per week.

        Oh, and by the way, making $19,000 a year, saving $11,000? Not even possible unless you’re living in a tent on a mountainside, hunting, fishing, and foraging. Various taxes (income tax, municipal tax, National Health Insurance, Pension) will eat up about $5,000 even on a low income like that. I highly doubt you survived, including the roof over your head, for $3,000 per year. Perhaps you are confusing “Japan” with Cambodia. Both countries have squiggly alphabets and people with black hair who eat lots of fish, so I can see where someone like you might be confused.

        Honestly, reading drivel like that makes me doubt that you’ve even lived in Japan at all.

      • blondein_tokyo

        You aren’t being totally fair here. We have no reason to believe he is lying about his job or income. I believe he is in Japan, works here, and was working two part time jobs. His stated salary is quite consistent with what eikaiwa teachers would make, before taxes, if they worked teaching kids at one job (salary would be quite low) and business classes at another job (higher salary but few hours).

        But you do make an interesting point in regards to pension, health insurance, and tax. I wonder, is/was he paying them? I ask, because you are right that someone could’t save that much money over the course of a year, with such a low salary, while paying those taxes, AND still afford to live in a city as expensive as Tokyo (assuming he is in Tokyo; he can correct me if I am wrong).

        Additionally, most eikaiwa don’t enroll their teachers in the pension or health insurance systems because they don’t want to be forced to pay their part. That’s why so many eikaiwa teachers aren’t on the pension and aren’t on the national health system – their company never signs them up, and they don’t bother signing themselves up. Who would, if they don’t plan to stay long, and don’t want to shell out all that money?

        Additionally, if you work somewhere part-time and are a contract employee, they don’t take your municipal tax out of your salary automatically, like most Japanese companies will do with full time, regular employees. A lot of foreigners don’t even bother paying their municipal tax. I know foreigners who have gotten away with not paying their municipal taxes for years!

        This is only important because he is so adamant that people should “fit in”to their adopted country, which I took to mean adhere to the culture and customs of their adopted country. So if he wasn’t paying taxes and wasn’t signed up for the pension or national health insurance, then he wasn’t following his own edicts. This means he either has different standards for himself and other people (is hypocritical) or he doesn’t believe as wholeheartedly in the importance of “fitting in” as he is trying to lead us to believe.

      • Charles

        Yeah, you’re right that (sadly) it is at least theoretically possible to work full-time and get $19,000 a year. That comes out to about 180,000~190,000 yen per month–very few full-time jobs list pay that little, but they do exist.

        I say, “If you’re getting 180,000~190,000 yen per month teaching English, why not just quit and work at Sukiya for the same salary? Your Japanese will improve more.” Though I’m not sure whether the immigration officials would give you work permission to do that (it depends).

        But yeah, as you put it, in order to live in a city (he lived in Kyoto at the time, by the way) and survive on $666.67 per month, he would have had to be dodging some taxes. That would be an even bigger transgression than not becoming totally fluent in the language.

      • blondein_tokyo

        I don’t like to speculate. It’s inefficient and usually turns out to be wrong. But I am quite interested in the question of whether he has been paying all his taxes, because most gaijin don’t.

      • Diego Garcia

        As someone who recently left his teaching job. It is not always the fault of the “gaijin” for dodging his or her taxes. My employer simply paid me CASH every month with all necessary taxes already being taken out. I didn’t had to do anything, or at least my employer never explained to me. On top of that as a dispatch teacher just like Jonathan was, my employer took 30% out of my pay-cheque. That is a lot considering I earned around 280k – 300k a month. Did I complain having 200-225k net. a month cash in hand, even rent already being deducted, no.

        But I do think my employer is cheating the system, not me. And I do think that my employer doing some illegal stuff by not contributing to healthcare/pension as should according to the law. No for fact I was living in Shizuoka so life is more affordable and rent cost half of Tokyo or Kyoto. Food etc is also less expensive. Yet I was able to save at least 1000 USD a month (before bills and other stuff). So my point is that I won’t question Jonathan, he made some good points of dedication and learning a language.

        Did he saved money, possibly, we cannot say with certainty. I just want to share my thoughts and my situation as being a dispatch teacher. We should not forget that often times its our employers who are not paying for the right things according to Japanese law. But since they are native, they have found ways to hide from that. Since there is no national union for foreign workers its hard for those like myself who are not fluent in Japanese to understand every regulation or law. I blame first of all my employer for explaining everything and second to simply be honest.

      • blondein_tokyo

        I know eikaiwa are constantly breaking the law and using teachers to make themselves money, and getting away with treating the teachers like slaves. I also know the teachers often aren’t aware of the laws and their employers will even lie to them. And to be quite honest? I don’t blame people for not wanting to contribute to the Japanese government via their taxes. Foreigners don’t get the same rights as Japanese citizens, yet we are supposed to pay taxes the same as the Japanese do. It’s racist, and it’s not just; so I personally do not stand in judgement on the people who manage to dodge the system.

        I’ve got permanent residency and work for a big Japanese corporation, so I don’t have any choice in the matter. But I would happily tell the J-gov to go eff themselves if I had the choice. :)

        The only reason this point is even relevant to the discussion is because the poster’s entire argument hinges on people “fitting
        into” their adopted country. If he wasn’t/isn’t paying taxes, signed up for the pension, or on the national health insurance himself, then he is either a hypocrite or he doesn’t
        believe as wholeheartedly in the importance of “fitting in” as he is
        trying to lead us to believe.

      • Jonathan Fields

        You make a bunch of assumptions and then get angry about them. It’s great. “$19,000! That’s impossible, he’s lying! What about taxes! I got him this time!” Did it ever occur to you that I might have taken taxes out of that figure already? The company I worked for withheld city taxes and what not because they’d had problems with foreigners not understanding the weird one year arrears thing they do here and getting in to trouble. But you’re right to be wary of my claims. I did lie about having a Japanese grandfather in an unrelated thread on an unrelated website that you went and dug up because you actually got upset at the idea that someone could get good enough to understand PA announcements in two years. Increase your exposure, stop putting Japanese on a pedestal, and stop making excuses.

      • Charles

        I see you edited your original post and added “after taxes and fees.”

        It’s normal to express your pre-tax salary, not your post-tax salary, which is why we were confused (until you clarified it). So you weren’t really making $19,000 a year, you were probably making $24,000 or $25,000 a year. Okay, that explains a lot.

        “I did lie about having a Japanese grandfather in an unrelated thread on an unrelated website that you went and dug up”

        Yeah, your credibility isn’t exactly sterling right now. Doesn’t matter to us if it’s an unrelated thread and an unrelated website.

      • Hanten

        Keary, is that you?

      • ChbiM

        I see your point, but not everybody is able to immerse themselves in the culture. Some of them have a lot of trouble being accepted and fitting in. They don’t make friends, they may not have enough money to socialize, and they may feel actively excluded. These can all sap the willpower to learn. Japanese Brazilians might well in some cases find it harder to fit in … They won’t have the “gaijin pull” factor which gets people who don’t look very Japanese so much superficial attention when they reach here. They may be expected to have some kind of imaginary “racial” knowledge of how to be “Japanese” and be condemned as uncooperative and antisocial. Life can be much harder than people realise for those whose ancestry is 100 per cent Japanese but who have been brought up elsewhere. They do get treated as a special category of outsider, even though they have visa privileges, and expectations of them are too high to be possible to fulfil.

        So much of language acquisition depends in a deep emotional attachment to a culture. It’s a psychological process as well as an educational process. If people are not open in their willingness to speak to you, if they don’t give positive feedback, and if you don’t receive the friendship “rewards” that language learning typically brings, it will be difficult to get into a psychological state conducive to learning. Japan isn’t the easiest country to make close friends; it can take years before a community will accept you. And I do mean close friends rather than people who drift or want to practice English or who think it’s “cool” to hang out with foreigners. I can see how people from more demonstrative culture might find it very emotionally challenging.

      • Jonathan Fields

        Ok. And that’s a valid argument. Having lived in Mie, I do know how strict Japanese people can be with Nikkei foreigners. I would say that there are other ways to expose yourself (movies, TV, books, product labels, store staff, etc.), but difficulty fitting in is an issue for sure.

        “There’s no time.”
        “Some people work in factories at night.”
        “I have a job where I speak English.”
        “I don’t need to be an expert.”
        “Language acquisition is different for each person.”
        “Some people have no money.”

        ↑These are not valid excuses↑

      • ChbiM

        I suspect that many immigrants may be suffering from quite considerable assimilation issues – depression, chronic homesickness, feelings of chronic alienation, etc. These are quite well understood in the sociology of migration, and they will hinder efforts to become linguisticallly fluent. People cope with a new culture in a variety of ways – some immerse themselves completely, some reject the new culture and live in an expatriate bubble, and some attempt to strike a balance. It depends on the make-up of the individual; it isn’t always a choice.

        I am concerned about the mental health of a lot of the non-European/American immigrants I see here, because they often aren’t exactly given a heartfelt welcome. I suspect many may be struggling with very little support – especially with very little mental health support, which is not a strong point of the Japanese system anyway. Many don’t have a choice to go home either, due to marriage, family commitments, lack of money etc. I can understand why language acquisition isn’t happening in a lot of cases.

      • Diego Garcia

        So basically you are saying, you are one of those awkward “gaijins” who never succeeded in his own country, couldn’t find a girlfriend and decided to hop over to Japan, the land of awkwardness, meet a local Japanese girl, change your hair colour to blonde if it already wasn’t, grow it like some of those poster boys, turn your back on your home country, family, friends (if you had any), and simply became more awkward on a daily basis. Yeah, you should be so proud of yourself bragging how fluent you are in Japanese.

      • Jonathan Fields

        Someone had their Haterade this morning. It makes me smile to know that I made you so angry.

      • blondein_tokyo

        People have different capacities for learning languages- this is a fact. Just because you personally were able to learn Japanese in a year doesn’t mean everyone else can. In addition, those announcements can be difficult to understand even for people who speak Japanese well, because of the echoing effect the loudspeakers have. Older people and others who are hard of hearing also might have difficulties. It would be sensible for the city to have alternative ways of warning people.

      • Charles

        I’d love to hear his story.

        70% chance that he’s lying
        25% chance that he’s telling the truth, but was the recipient of some huge amount of privilege (like having rich parents who could afford to send him to language school for a year or two, or going to a high school where Japanese was offered, or being born with a gift for languages)
        4% chance that he got lucky on the test and isn’t really N1 level
        1% chance that he really did achieve JLPT N1 through his own blood, sweat, and tears, with pure hard work and dedication

      • Jonathan Fields

        Just because you’re incapable of working hard doesn’t mean other people are “privileged.” It says a lot about you that you assigned a 1% value to “hard work and dedication.”

      • Charles

        Oh, if you really passed “JLPT1 (sic)” then I’m sure that you did work hard. Whether your dad is a billionaire or not. “JLPT1 (sic)” requires thousands of hours of hard work no matter what your financial background is. If you really passed it, it of course required hard work (you can’t just buy a JLPT N1 passing score).

        However, even if you really do have JLPT N1, I highly doubt you paid for your own language school with your own money, worked to support yourself during those two years, etc.

        Of course I could be wrong. Which is why I left a 1% chance that you really are just THAT hard-working, to master fluent Japanese without any of the privileges that I have enumerated above. But I’m willing to bet that you’re either A) lying or B) have at least one of the privileges on the list I laid out beforehand.

        As for whether you’re telling the truth or not, how about scanning your pass certificate? That’ll “put me in my place” really quickly!

      • Alistair Troublesome

        i have a pretty bad hearing. and loud noises put me in an anxiety mode – often times i can’t function anymore. Even if i were fluent in japanese i still wouldn’t understand the announcement. And what if those people were ALL doing something noisy at the time of the announcement and couldn’t stop on the job to listen to what was being said?
        Get down from your lofty chair and be more sensible towards the needs of others because we are not all created using the same mold.

      • Jonathan Fields

        If you have difficulty hearing and loud noises make you anxious, then it wouldn’t matter what language the announcements were in. You still have no excuse not to learn Japanese.

        If you live in a foreign country, you should learn the language. Period. End of story. It’s not diffucult and only requires changing your habits.

        Here are some tips for people who want to learn Japanese quickly:

        Don’t hang out with your English speaking friends as much.

        Talk to a cute girl at Starbucks.

        If you catch yourself on YouTube, watch something in Japanese.

        Whenever you’re on Wikipedia, see if there’s a Japanese version of the article and take a crack at it.

        Buy your favorite book in Japanese and read a few pages every now and then.

        Switch all of your devices into Japanese.

        Try to find some Japanese music you like.

        Leave the TV on in Japanese while you’re cooking or doing chores.

        Go to Tsutaya on 5 for 1000 days and rent movies.

        If you’re really dedicated, take a lesson. I recommend learning only Kanji. A Chinese person can help you with this, as a lot of schools in China teach via mnemonic devices rather than the rote method preferred in Japan. If you don’t have a Chinese friend like I did, go via Heisig or another Kanji dictionary if you’re not a visual learner.

        When you learn an interesting new word, make a flash card in Anki or write a sentence on a Post-It and put it on your wall. My apartment looked like a 3M factory exploded.

        Ask store clerks to repeat things or tell you the exact phrase they used rather than letting it slide because you understood the gist. They’re trained to pay attention to you, so use it.

        By changing your habits, you can increase your “study” time without actually having to carve out a valuable piece of your busy schedule. Your speaking, reading, and listening will be much more natural than other foreigners you know and you can enjoy Japan more because you don’t have the “oh, I really need to study” shadow hanging over you all the time. The key is doing it. Not making excuses.

      • Charles

        Yeah, we get it, studying Japanese is really important.

        Nobody disagrees with that. If I saw a guy who had been here for years and couldn’t have a conversation, I might not chastise him, but I’d at very least think “What’s his problem?”

        But you’re chastising/condescending to people who aren’t FLUENT after two years. That’s ridiculous, a straw tower, and totally ignorant of the fact that it typically takes 3,100 hours to 4,500 hours to become fluent, and that not everybody has that many free hours in the day, let alone the energy to do that many hours of study inside of two years, even if they theoretically have the time. Even if someone gets five minutes flirting with a cute girl at Starbucks here, 10 minutes of Anki on the train there, etc. 3,100~4,500 is a HUGE number, and very hard to achieve in two years alongside a full-time job!

        Your methods are fine. I use many of the same ones myself (especially Anki, in which I have over 7,000 Japanese flash cards that I have learned [~6,000 J-words and ~1,300 kanji]).

        I don’t struggle with the kanji at all. The difficulty of kanji is vastly overrated–there are only 2,000 of them in common use (and even just 1,000 will get a person pretty far). That’s 3 a day for two years. Not rocket science. I officially know 1,322 but unofficially know probably upwards of 2K and honestly, I see no point in learning more kanji seeing as how I have the kanji level of a high school student (sufficient for daily life) but the listening of a small child, at best. Listening comprehension, though, is much harder, because native speakers know 60K~100K words and pull no punches in using these in regular conversation, there are no kanji to help guide you, and even if you know all of them, many of us have trouble matching the sound to the written word that we studied. It is also much harder to measure your progress with listening comprehension (for kanji, just pull out any newspaper, count the kanji in an article, and highlight the ones you currently know). Please do not confuse my “can’t-do” attitude about fluent listening with my attitude about kanji.

        Look, we get it, learning the language is important, everybody can learn Japanese to SOME level if they try, but not everyone can understand PA announcements after two years like you said they should be able to. That’s what I’m taking issue with.

        Anyone who isn’t working 80 hours a week ought to have the time to master JLPT N5 or maybe even N4 after a couple of years. But expecting an English teacher who works six days a week to devote 36 hours to Japanese study per week (which is what it would take from zero) per week is extremely unrealistic and shows a lack of touch with reality.

      • blondein_tokyo

        How people decide to spend their time and money is their business. Why don’t you focus on giving study advice to people who actually ask for it, instead of trying to shame people for not living their lives to your personal standard.

      • blondein_tokyo

        Privelage is being able to work hard because you have enough money to take the time necessary to study.

        Those people are factory line workers who likely do long shifts at night and don’t get paid enough to take weekends or holidays, can’t afford lessons, and can’t afford or just don’t have the time to socialize much.

        You and I both are privileged compared to them because we have decent jobs and can take the time to study. We also can spend time and money on going out with friends for dinner or drinks, which is how you really learn communicative language skills.

        I had a Brazillian friend who did that kind of work, and he never had many days off and never had money. He learned Japanese eventually, but it was broken and his vocabulary consisted of words for daily use. Not keigo, not specialized vocabulary, just daily, simple words.

        Not everyone has either the time, capacity, or need to acquire JPLT level 1.

      • Charles

        All you had to do was work hard, oh, and, attend Doshisha University, which costs only 952,000 yen for the first year alone! ANYONE could do it, so why the hell don’t they?! Those non-Japanese-speaking idiots!

      • ChbiM

        When people are in employment they often work long hours and have little time or energy for studying. Working hours can be terribly long and arduous here, and often leave people with little time for the kind of casual socialising that leads to good language acquisition. Also, in some areas, there may be problems of social alienation and not being able to make friends, which will impact in an individual’s capacity to absorb language skills.

      • Charles

        He doesn’t understand this because he wasn’t working full-time. He claims he made $19,000 his first year. Very doubtful that he was really working full-time with a salary that low.

        Honestly, if you read the part where he claims to have saved $11,000 on a $19,000 salary, it looks like maybe him claiming that he even lived here at all is just a hoax. Very doubtful that he paid all his taxes, paid rent, and paid for food on just $666.67 per month.

        Maybe to save money he found a lonely Japanese obasan to give him free room and board. That’s certainly possible (I’ve had offers before, which I did not take), and would certainly explain his alleged fast language progression. But he claims he had “no privilege,” so that theory goes out the window. I also know very few lonely obasan who would tolerate such arrogance.

      • Hanten

        Jonathan, are you gifted?

      • stephan

        I speak, read and write fluently 3 languages, I’m 62 years old and live in Japan for 6 months now and I do have issues learning Japanese. I do agree that living here you should learn the language, but remember, not everyone is able to learn as fast as you did.

  • Randomizer

    “WAHHH! I am living in Japan long term yet refuse to consistently put in time nor effort to learn the language. Instead the majority should bend over backwards and adapt to me because of my self-entitled birth rights due to my different skin colour! If they do not then everyone is a RACIST! WAHHH!”

    Pretty much sums up the majority of the posts here. And that is despite there being a sizeable community of expats in Japan who can and do speak Japanese at a near native level – after putting into time AND effort.

    • ChbiM

      The speakers in our area are so badly set up that it’s impossible even for native speakers to make out what they are saying. Because of the way in which sound travels, the words from several different speakers reach you with a fraction of a second’s distance between them, which obscures them completely. Megaphones would be more effective.

      • Randomizer

        I sympathise with the poor speaker setup in your area. Perhaps the municipality would improve on the situation if enough people lobbied it.

        What I do take an issue with however, are the comments which expect special treatment from others because of some screwed up self-entitlement of theirs. It is no different a non-native speaker of English migrating to U.S., refusing to learn the lingua franca there and yet still have the audacity to cry foul.

  • Mieko

    I have little sympathy for people like this.. If you go to Japan to work you need to know Japanese…If you go to work in Japan in effectively a remote suburb..you better be friggin fluent..

    • blondein_tokyo

      I see. You get to be the arbiter for how everyone lives their life.

      Or at least, you think you do.

      I’m tired of repeating my rebuttals to this argument, so if you care to know why I disagree with your statement you can read my other posts.

      • Mieko

        Going to work in Japan and not knowing the language to a point where you can’t understand warning messages is just damned stupid.

      • blondein_tokyo

        You absolutely ignore that the people who come to Japan for business or on holiday, or those who are just now learning the language, are in just as much danger. Are they also “stupid”?

        And do you think that people who don’t understand the warnings are somehow deserving of death? I think it’s clear that the answer to that is *no*.

        But do you know what IS stupid? Making sweeping generalizations without thinking things through rationally.

    • Charles

      “If you go to work in Japan in effectively a remote suburb..you better be friggin fluent..”

      Or what? Your cat avatar will come to life and bite me?

      • Mieko

        No.. But these people have no right to complain about not understanding the language in the country they decided to work in.. Going to work in Japan and not knowing the language to a point where you can’t understand warning messages is just damned stupid.

      • Mieko

        Well if Mie was still alive she’d probably just grr at you.

  • J Steel

    While I completely sympathize with their situation, the fact is that they are in Japan, not to mention not even in Tokyo. If a Japanese was living in Alabama and there was a flood warning, there would be a warning in English period, not in multiple languages. For disasters communications like this, I guess it would help if it were in Japanese and English, as the latter is at any rate the main international language. But to expect it also in Portuguese I think is asking a little too much. If this happened in a small city in Brazil would they also announce it in the language of every major cultural group that was there, something tells me that is unlikely.

    • Hanten

      I am lucky enough to live in an area of Tokyo that takes its responsibilities to all its residents far more seriously than Joso seems to. For example, this year we were invited to attend disaster prevention and preparedness training in multiple languages. I did, along with about a hundred other local residents. There were dozen or so countries represented both on the residents and the town hall sides. Despite the mind-boggling amount of forethought and planning that must go into organizing this bi-annual event is mind-boggling, they also managed to include some cultural activities, perhaps to lighten it up. It was such a fun and informative day, that some of us were interviewed by not one but two television stations.

      Knowing that they were not ready to broadcast emergency warnings in multiple languages yet, they helped us with some functional Japanese and promised that they would begin broadcasting the warnings in English by 2016. Makes me feel a lot better about paying tax, especially as the day was free to local residents and I came away with bags of freebies as well as a great deal of valuable knowledge, skills and experience. As a language instructor, I could imagine how difficult and expensive the exercise must be. I am very grateful for their efforts and hope that Joso residents get to see something similar program before the next disaster strikes.

    • blondein_tokyo

      This comment, like all the others here like it, ignores that it takes a long time to become fluent enough in a language to be able to understand TV news reports or public announcements on loudspeakers. It doesn’t take into consideration the people who aren’t residents, but who are there on business or holiday, or who are newcomers that haven’t begun language study yet.

      It also exaggerates hugely – in a community that has a large population of Brazillians, it’s simple common sense to provide information for that community. The fact is, in the U.S. in cities like, say, Tuscon, AZ, we provide information in Spanish because there’s a large Hispanic community. In multi-ethnic cities like Vancouver, they provide information in French, Chinese, and Japanese. That city might be small, but it’s multi-ethnic.

      Interestingly enough, there’s a tiny town in southern Iowa that has a population of about 3,000. There are signs up around town in Hindi and Tamil. Why? Because it happens to have a large Indian community.

      If it helps, why not do it?

      • ChbiM

        Multicultural places in the UK also have multilingual information. Since English is a much more widely-spoken language than Japanese, I think that demonstrates the practical necessity of having multilingual communications, whether or not people expect minority communities to learn the native language. It’s just practical.

    • ChbiM

      a specific flood warning siren, recognisable,from its sound, rather than verbal warning, would perhaps be a better option. Then all the problems of lousy speakers, deaf people not being able to hear it, children not being able to understand it, people who had headphones on not being able to hear it would be eradicated. Two tones for flood, a different one for a fire. They’d be able to post explanations through everyone’s door in multiple languages.

      Sorry for the grammar. JT doesn’t work well enough on ipad to make it possible to edit text.

      • ChbiM

        Sorry, I do mean a very loud air-raid like siren. Obviously people who were completely deaf wouldn’t pick it up, but the large number of people who had less serious hearing problems would.

  • Hanten

    Oh, Charles, you’re fantastic. Thank you for doing the research for the rest of reading at home.

  • Jonathan Fields

    Going to Doshisha had nothing to do with studying Japanese. I got JLPT1 before I went there. And yes, I paid for it myself working at an eikaiwa and doing a part time job for two years (which actually screwed me over because the tax system is Japan is weird… I’d recommend taking out a loan and going if you’re going to do it at all). $9,000 a year isn’t cheap, but it’s peanuts compared to an American school.

  • Diego Garcia

    As someone who recently left his teaching job. It is not always the fault of the “gaijin” for dodging his or her taxes. My employer simply paid me CASH every month with all necessary taxes already being taken out. I didn’t had to do anything, or at least my employer never explained to me. On top of that as a dispatch teacher just like Jonathan was, my employer took 30% out of my pay-cheque. That is a lot considering I earned around 280k – 300k a month. Did I complain having 200-225k net. a month cash in hand, even rent already being deducted, no.

    But I do think my employer is cheating the system, not me. And I do think that my employer doing some illegal stuff by not contributing to healthcare/pension as should according to the law. No for fact I was living in Shizuoka so life is more affordable and rent cost half of Tokyo or Kyoto. Food etc is also less expensive. Yet I was able to save at least 1000 USD a month (before bills and other stuff). So my point is that I won’t question Jonathan, he made some good points of dedication and learning a language.

    Did he saved money, possibly, we cannot say with certainty. I just want to share my thoughts and my situation as being a dispatch teacher. We should not forget that often times its our employers who are not paying for the right things according to Japanese law. But since they are native, they have found ways to hide from that. Since there is no national union for foreign workers its hard for those like myself who are not fluent in Japanese to understand every regulation or law. I blame first of all my employer for explaining everything and second to simply be honest.

    To come back to the main topic quickly. I do feel the frustration not understanding announcements or able to read certain important notifications due my lack of Japanese. In one way, yes I should learn more to become fluent in the language, but I got other priorities at the moment as in paying bills and putting food on the table. Other hand I do see a clear lack from the Japanese to translate these important things in at least in English. But then you have the problem that many non-Japanese cannot understand English well enough either. So who’s fault is that?

    What is the right solution? You can’t ask a country where its native tongue is not English, Chinese, Portuguese, etc., to translate literally 60.000 – 100k Kanji words or whatever into those languages. What should be done is perhaps employ more foreigners of different nationalities, work together with Japanese and providing service specifically focused to us foreigners. The same thing they are already doing with Amazon Japan which has a foreign English department, JPost service who has an English phone line, local libraries who offer free Japanese languages every week + translation into several languages.

  • One of the issue I have with the Japanese is their inability to get out of keigo when it is obvious the situation calls for it. I shudder every time my bank calls because the simplest of transactions that I could understand in normal Japanese becomes incomprehensible.

    Even when I say, “Please don’t use keigo – just say it in everyday Japanese” they have trouble breaking out of the habit.